gandalf as a maia - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

dwarfguard · 03-23-2005, 02:42 PM

does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?I mean, if she suspected anything, she might be afraid of the wrath of the valar and maybe she thought the wizards might be there to persecute her for leaving valinor?Or maybe she sensed his mission and kept silent for the fellowships sake?

Anguirel · 03-23-2005, 03:25 PM

With all due respect, drigel and dwarfguard , I think you're rather underestimating Galadriel. In whatever version of her story you believe, she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself. (Galadriel, Feanor and Saruman are awfully similar. Like repels like.) Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

Galadriel can't be messed with. She's not just great in Third Age terms; she's in the big three of greatest Elves ever (Feanor, Galadriel and the incongruous Luthien). She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power. If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia. And if she identified Olorin, she'd keep his secret only if she felt inclined to (and she would have done).

Good point about passing unseen, though. Slightly scuttles my ideas.

dwarfguard · 03-23-2005, 06:16 PM

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

obloquy · 03-23-2005, 06:32 PM

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Originally Posted by dwarfguard

i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

Not quite. We're not talking about Dragon Ball Z. "Power levels" are a pretty complicated thing in Tolkien's work. Galadriel would not have had anything to fear from Saruman personally, I daresay, just as Gandalf did not. "Stronger than any elf" may not be entirely accurate, either, as Tolkien said that some Elves were elevated to such a degree of mightiness as to approach the spiritual puissance of the Maiar. I believe this was written in reference to Glorfindel, and could obviously also apply to those considered "greater" than he.

Boromir88 · 03-23-2005, 07:16 PM

If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog....

drigel · 03-23-2005, 07:43 PM

If you look at my posts, I am a Galadriel defender myself. And I do love a good debate, so I will be the devils advocate on this one, just because I am still interested. As long as its based on good natured, canon adhering ideas, I do like to throw it around some. Makes me think and learn

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does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?

She was as wise as she was a great elf. IMO, (kind of aggreeing with DGuard) if she did anything, she confided to him -in private communication (either verbally or non-verbally). Im sure Gandalf did as well.

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she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself

Pride and the desire to rule says a lot about her strength of spirit, yes. Her, and about 35,000 other Noldor defied the Valar...... so that says what about her personal physical attributes??

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Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway.

ummm not sure what the point is here. Too many contradictions. I would say here that disdain is different than "calling him out" and identifying him as Sauron Gauthar. She is neither omnipresent nor is she omnipotent.

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She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power

LOVE that. Awsome. Except for the unlimited part..

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If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia.

She is accounted, of all the Eldar, one of the most powerfull, noble and wise. If it was an athletic contest, the smart money would be on G. But, she is an elf, not a comic book hero. She spent the majoritiy of her time in ME ruling, not personally fighting. As for the Maia deal, I would think that Saruman might be hampered due to the fact that he had to assume the physical embodiment that the Istari were confined to, but cmon dude - GvsS is to me like GvsBalrog. I would hope for the best, but my heart would tell me that she would not be long for this world. All a matter of opinion I guess....

dwarfguard · 03-23-2005, 07:56 PM

it might be because i was never much of an galadriel person, but i have to stick with what i said before.Theres no way she would stand a chance against saruman.Those staffs arent just for looks.I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior, more of an mental warrior, so to speak, very strong willed.Oh yeah, whatever dragonball z is, i assure you it has nothing to do with it.I got that part about saruman being the most poweful from the books.Maybe someone known as a warrior like glorfindel or feanor could defeat him.

Boromir88 · 03-23-2005, 08:30 PM

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I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior

She (with some help from Saruman) threw Sauron's butt out of Dol Guldur. She is also able to sustain Lorien with the power from her ring. And being a Noldor elf who has seen the two trees I would say she is quite a warrior if needed to be one.

03-23-2005, 03:25 PM	#2
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Galadriel ain't no groveller! With all due respect, drigel and dwarfguard , I think you're rather underestimating Galadriel. In whatever version of her story you believe, she defies all the Valar with the insouciance of Feanor himself. (Galadriel, Feanor and Saruman are awfully similar. Like repels like.) Mere Maiar hold little fear for her; she studied under Melian (alright, that implies she slightly knew her place, but wasn't intimidated.) Remember Sauron, as Annatar, posed as a Maia out of the west, but both Galadriel and her nephew Gil-Galad openly disdained him anyway. Galadriel can't be messed with. She's not just great in Third Age terms; she's in the big three of greatest Elves ever (Feanor, Galadriel and the incongruous Luthien). She's an eccentric, a genius, last of a great line, endowed with unlimited wisdom (as she believes) and power. If she wants to cut Saruman dead, she can, Maia or no Maia. And if she identified Olorin, she'd keep his secret only if she felt inclined to (and she would have done). Good point about passing unseen, though. Slightly scuttles my ideas. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

03-23-2005, 07:16 PM	#5
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	If some elves were powerful enough to slay Balrogs, than I'd say they could give Saruman a run for his money. And seeing that Galadriel is more powerful than Glorfindel who slew a balrog.... __________________ Fenris Penguin

03-23-2005, 02:42 PM	#1
dwarfguard Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	does anyone think that galadriel was a bit apprehensive about calling gandalf out as a maia?I mean, if she suspected anything, she might be afraid of the wrath of the valar and maybe she thought the wizards might be there to persecute her for leaving valinor?Or maybe she sensed his mission and kept silent for the fellowships sake?

03-23-2005, 06:16 PM	#3
dwarfguard Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	i agree that galadriel is a force to be reckoned with, but that thing about her cutting saruman down is ridiculous.He held Gandalf against his will and was the most powerful of the Istari.Not to mention he was a maia, who is stronger than any elf, unless your talking about hand-to-hand combat.Sauron posed as Annatar giver of gifts, not as a maia, although we all know he was.They probably suspected him for who he really was.

03-23-2005, 07:56 PM	#7
dwarfguard Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17	it might be because i was never much of an galadriel person, but i have to stick with what i said before.Theres no way she would stand a chance against saruman.Those staffs arent just for looks.I'm sure it came in handy for gandalf against that balrog.Although there is debate about elven "magic", i never seen her as much of a warrior, more of an mental warrior, so to speak, very strong willed.Oh yeah, whatever dragonball z is, i assure you it has nothing to do with it.I got that part about saruman being the most poweful from the books.Maybe someone known as a warrior like glorfindel or feanor could defeat him.