God, I'm not cut out to be a genealogist...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Nothing to worry about, Yeade, no forum etiquette has been harmed in the making of this thread! You're fine with starting a new thread for a new topic. Welcome to the Downs, and enjoy yourself here!

[Yeade]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Nothing to worry about, Yeade, no forum etiquette has been harmed in the making of this thread!

Whew, that's good to know. Thank you.

I updated the family tree with a few more names and as many dates as I could look up. Naturally, this created more... issues.

Most of the new names belong to the Houses of Bëor, Haleth, and Hador. And unfortunately--in the House of Bëor particularly--I have no way of determining the gender of all these people. I mean, it just doesn't seem likely that everyone has as many sons as Fëanor, give or take a couple! In those sections--also notable is the lineage of Hallacar, husband of Númenórean Queen Tar-Ancalimë--I, er, arbitrarily marked people as women. Any hints here would be very helpful.

I did the best I could with the dates, but there are a lot of uncertainties and a lot of holes. The higher up in the tree, the less confident I am about the dates. While editing the chart, I mentally checked a few points to ask about later, but I can only remember one... Drat. At any rate, I can throw out my one question. Amrod and Amras, the twins of Fëanor, were both lost in the assault on the Mouths of Sirion, right? When exactly was that?

Oh, and on the notation, most of the abbreviations and such used are pretty standard, I think. The various royals have two bracketed numbers. The first, in italics, is the number of years ruling; the second is the date his or her reign ended, usually also the date of death. Herucalmo in the Númenórean line and Castamir of Gondor have dates in parentheses as both are essentially usurpers of their respective thrones. Aragorn's dates aren't formatted with italics yet because [whine] it was 3 AM, I was tired, I didn't notice the error until I'd already uploaded the damn 4+ MB thing, and I just couldn't be bothered to fix the numbers, then wait another five or something minutes to upload the file again! [/whine] I've already added the italics, but will wait and see if there are other corrections to be made before uploading the new version.

So, any takers? There must be mistakes, I know it... And, as always, I'm open to suggestions for improvements. For one, should I mark birth dates during the Age of the Trees? I didn't--it seemed more excessive than I'm willing to let this already excessive project get--but if it helps...

[Maédhros]

You might want to check this thread out, especially since it has a very complete although not perfect tree of the Eldar and Edain genealogy.

Eldar

Look at post 32.

Some things that come to my mind after seeing your trees are the following:
Why do you have Erenion as the son of Fingon?
You should read the Shibboleth of Fëanor to have a fresher perspective.
Orodreth shold be the son of Angrod and Eldalótë, and Erenion should be the son of Orodreth and brother to Finduilas.

You might also want to inlcude Arakáno, who is the younger brother of Fingon and Turgon. And have Anairë as the wife of Ñolofinwë.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Yeade

Most of the new names belong to the Houses of Bëor, Haleth, and Hador. And unfortunately - in the House of Bëor particularly - I have no way of determining the gender of all these people. I mean, it just doesn't seem likely that everyone has as many sons as Fëanor, give or take a couple! In those sections - also notable is the lineage of Hallacar, husband of Númenórean Queen Tar-Ancalimë - I, er, arbitrarily marked people as women. Any hints here would be very helpful.

In general, unless mentioned as women, wives, or daughters, it's generally a safe assumption to assume that a name belongs to a man. This doesn't mean that Arda was overbalanced by one gender, just that the names and lineage of most women were never recorded or remembered in the records in the same way as those of men.

[Yeade]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

You might want to check this thread out, especially since it has a very complete although not perfect tree of the Eldar and Edain genealogy.

Thanks for the link! I'll be sure to comb carefully through the thread when I have a free night. (Though I do wish I had this resource before I started as it's much, much easier to build on the work of others when doing these family trees. Ah, well.) It's very helpful.

I think I'm going to have to do some major revamping to account for your corrections and the information in the thread. Both halves are close to the 5 MB upload limit, so I'll be forced to split the chart into thirds. I want the cuts to be natural or at least logical. The most obvious cut, I think, is at Elros and Elrond; that's where the first version was split. I had trouble placing the Númenórean royals, but settled for tacking it to the first half. After adding in dates, expanding the three Houses of Men and the Númenórean line, I couldn't get all the Kings of Númenor into one half. Thus the, IMHO, rather awkward cut in the current version. If I'm going to further detail the Eldar lines, I think I'll cut at Elros and Elrond, then move all the Númenórean royals into the next third. The question, then, is how to make the second cut. I feel a bit uneasy about chopping apart the lines of Elendil--I think because I take the whole fuss over unbroken succession to heart--but I must balance the material in the last two thirds. Any ideas?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In general, unless mentioned as women, wives, or daughters, it's generally a safe assumption to assume that a name belongs to a man. This doesn't mean that Arda was overbalanced by one gender, just that the names and lineage of most women were never recorded or remembered in the records in the same way as those of men.

Yes, that certainly seems to be the case. It's the daughters aspect of it that gives me a loophole I can use to satisfy both the feminist (equality of the sexes) and artist (balance and variation in color) in me. So, I suppose I'll just keep those arbitrary women unless canon explicitly or implicitly says otherwise.

Not that the process of marking out women is totally arbitrary. Just subjective, based on naming patterns or me deciding such-and-such sounds a bit feminine. I mean, I thought Tolkien was quite particular in naming his characters, so perhaps there are etymological clues as to gender. Sounds a bit far-fetched, but it's the only idea I can think of that's worth pursuing. It's just beyond what I can do. Opinions on this would be welcome.

Maédhros, Formendacil, thank you both for your comments.

[Yeade]

Whew! The family tree's been updated with the information in the thread Maédhros was kind enough to point out for me and divided into three roughly equal sections for the site. I've also added the birth dates of Elendil and all his kingly descendants, corrected Aragorn's dates so that he's not living in the Second Age, put the Lords of Andúnië in order, and fixed the omission of dates for Elrond's children and Gilraen. I'd somehow missed those mistakes the last three or something times I corrected the tree; apparently my brain melts into gray mush halfway down the chart...

At any rate, in the course of all these corrections, I felt perhaps I'd given everyone the wrong impression of my access to and knowledge of Tolkien's works. I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings in 3rd grade... and just recently read the latter a second time. I read The Silmarillion sometime in middle school--once--and never read it again (though I plan to do so over the summer). Until I came to these boards, I'd never even heard of The History of Middle-Earth! The family tree was mainly put together by clicking through all the relevant links at The Encyclopedia of Arda and The Encyclopedia of Middle-earth. Thus, in the first version, I didn't have any dates--I just didn't know many--the Three Houses of the Edain grew and grew, and there were many mistakes in the genealogies of the Eldar.

I've been persistently annoying people here because I know the online resources aren't complete (or even accurate in some cases), but I'm too broke to buy the books I need and don't have access to through libraries. I don't have the knowledge to spot errors.

So, Maédhros, when you suggested I brush up on "The Shibboleth of Fëanor," I had no idea what you were talking about. I figured I'd attempt to find it myself before I pestered you, and eventually I realized it was in HOME. I browsed the two libraries I had easy access to and came up with HOME Volumes IX, XI, and XII. Thankfully, "The Shibboleth" is in HOME 12, along with the handy "The Heirs of Elendil," which I cross-referenced with what I had and took all those neat birth dates for this latest version from. I'm still perusing "The Shibboleth," but expect there'll be more corrections. I hope also to read "The History of the Akallabêth," then clear up, once and for all, the Three Houses of the Edain from the information in HOME 11. Hell, I think I'm probably going to end up reading the index.

The other volumes of HOME aren't readily available to me... Could anyone tell me what other volumes would be useful? So I have a clue as to which ones I should track down? If it's not too much trouble? Or any other material I should reference, really. For one, I should probably read The Akallabêth and check the Númenórean line, but I'm not entirely sure where that is... Is there truly nothing on the royal lines of Cardolan and Rhudaur? I would be thankful for any pointers.

[Yeade]

Finished "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" and read again "The Heirs of Elendil." Made a number of minor corrections.

On lotr-a.bmp:
Írimë's name corrected from Irímë
Fingon's daughter Erien (wrongly marked as a son), son Finbor, and grandchildren erased as rejected by Tolkien in later genealogies
Artanaro (which should be Artanáro) Gil-galad erased as another name for Ereinion Gil-galad
Ereinion Gil-galad finally, finally placed as son of Orodreth, brother of Finduilas

On lotr-b.bmp:
Ornendil died III 1446, nine years after father Eldacar was deposed
Fíriel born III 1896

On lotr-c.bmp:
Valandil's reign amended from 247 to 239 years (III 10-249)
Beleg's date of death changed from III 1026 to 1029; accordingly he ruled for 83, not 80, years
Mallor's reign, which follows, lasted 81 years instead of 84
Arvedui ruled 11 years, not 10
Fíriel born III 1896
Dírhael descended from Aranarth through Arathorn I

Also of note, on lotr-a.bmp:

Indis is shown as the sister of Ingwë despite the fact that, in HOME 12, she "is said to have been the daughter of King Ingwë's sister." Apparently HOME 10 places her as I have. I don't know which of the two has more weight, but in the selfish interest to avoid shifting the entire tree from Indis on down to insert that extra generation, I didn't follow HOME 12. There's a bit of wiggle room, in that she is said to have been... Okay, yeah, I'm grasping for straws.

Faniel and Finrun Felageomor also remain on the tree largely because just thinking about the rearranging I have to do makes my head hurt and fingers itch. As I understand it, Faniel is in HOME 10, Finrun in HOME 4. I don't have access to either so, again, I can't say whether what I've done is acceptable.

I used a genealogic tree what i found on the web (the name of the creator was "Eril", maybe you can know who is he, i'm not in all this) and i reform it acording on what i found over the web, and when i (thought that) finished the work, i print. And now i'm doing a genealogic tree of the hobbits family, like Baggins, Gamgee, Took, Brandybuck and Bolger, Boffin, Proudfoot, etc.
I don't know if the names are trues of falses. I can't choose none of them because i don't have the book (only Silmarillion, Hobbit, and LOTR) but i do what i can. I don't remember so well, but, is not true that in the Silmarillion Ereinion Gil-Galad is the son of Fingon?
I have all the works in a 300 Kb zip (still on construction) but i don't where can i post it.

On the page http://www.annalsofarda.dk/Annals-of...rdoRhutext.htm is a table of the Kings of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhuadaur... Are this men really kings of those kingdoms?


Well, this is all that i can write with my poor english. I expect it can help you.


Jorge Luis.