Luthien: Maia or Elf.

[HerenIstarion]

You both have good points and produce coherent chain of argument (and brought me much pleasure in reading it), but I can't help having a feeling you discuss a little without 'common point of compromise'. And can't help feeling there is not that much importance to the question at all

What is the scale you measure the 'power' against? Or what is 'power'?

According to dictionary:

Power: a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect

there is a wagonful of definitions to follow, we'll deal with them (not all, of course) later but for now, this will suffice. It seems to me, than, that in this respect, Elrond and Galadriel (and Celembrimbor and Samwise Gamgee's uncle Andy who was 'good with ropes'), are all equals. That is, if I seek exact effect, and have the means of producing it at my disposal, and produce it in an exact manner and mode I was after in my original design, my 'power' is as great as it may ever be with anyone else. So Gollum in his climbing ability is as 'powerful' as Feanor was in smithying etc.

The comparison may be made only if people are engaged in the same field. Say, it may be said that Feanor was greater smith than some Hobbiton smith was, and that also with a proviso - in case we know for sure that Feanor produced horse-shoes as well as palantiri, and shoes of his were objectively better than shoes produced by Hobbitn smith (given the same quality ore). But this does not work in case of kingdoms and efficacy of rulers (given that rulers all follow the same moral law) - for one (and that's enough), there are external factors which are absent in smithying.

Power 2 a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others

In this respect, those who possess such a control, or produce means of such a control, are the most powerful. But it seems a bit lop-sided a statistic. What would one do - count how much subjects Galadriel had, and if it is found that Lorien population exceeded that of Rivendell, she were more powerful, but if vice versa, Elrond was the tough guy than? Obviously, math will not help in this matter and mode of comparison. In this case, revolts (at a stretch) may serve as scale measure - i.e. if there were revolutions (given, again, same causing factors and same development pattern) of exact strength and the mode of how each particular ruler dealt with them would be the scale. But we have no revolutions in elven kingdoms save Nargothrond, and that was also rather coup d'etat brought about by external causes than revolution proper

Power 3 a : physical might b : mental or moral efficacy

Physical might is self explicable. (But who ever have seen Galadriel and Elrond kickboxing?)

For mental or moral efficacy, there is no scale of measure save direct encounter/duel either. As there were no exams or global tests for elven kings/queens in the sense 3b of the word 'power', I may now proceed to draw the conclusion:

There is hardly any, or no means whatsoever, of the 'power' test for elven lords, and, since there is also no point in such a comparison, the matter happily moves on to the sphere of personal tastes/likings/opinions

I would suggest than to substitute the word 'authority' for the word power, and define 'authority' as influence not over others, but over each other that elf lords exhibited. But in this case we also can not compare the authority of Elrond and Galadriel - being part of the council (i.e equals in status) they may have manifested their influence in turns. (We lack data - as it is, no minutes or proceedings of council sessions were preserved) For all we know, in a one event (Gandalf for President!), Galadriel lost rather than took over. Supposedly, to Elrond among others. But she may have won in other events. The only instance of saying 'who's the strongest' would have been that exact data of how much projects lobbied, say, by Elrond and impeded by Galadriel were approved of by the council on each contestants 'influence power' only (lacking other data, without other objective reasons, save for Elrond saying 'yes' and Galadriel saying 'no', or vice versa)

(Besides, some intstances of giving in to others may be a sign of not less, but of more 'power')

The most funny of all this post of mine is that such a substitution is also pointless. It would have been if we were comparing rivals, not allies. Say, Gandalf and Saruman, but since Elrond and Galadriel pursued same goal, exact amount of authority exhibited by each in the process of achieving it is of no importance

cheers

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Hear, hear!

Elfhood entrance examination announcement!

Elven power global test! School-leaving certificate! To be passed by all elves at the age of fifty!

• Test 1 (Physical prowess) Beat up the balrog two times out of three. (test is taken over two years, as there are many contestants and only one balrog (for equality's sake), and balrog has to be healed and rested before the new contestant comes to beat poor thing up)

• Test 2 (Mental efficacy) Outstare Sauron in the palantir and/or outsing him in an a cappella mode (no intstuments allowed)

• Test 3 (Creativeness) A) Architecture - Build underground mansions (dwarves may be employed, but should be paid for by the contestant) B) Applied arts - B.1 Create adornments out of precious metals (i.e. rings, necklaces, etc, special bonus if adornmnents have additional options of increasing mental efficacy, B.2 model sculptural images of plants B.3 Musical taste - create mental images with harps

• Test 4 (Applied technologies) - A) Global commubications - Create TV/satellite sets (artistic performance/aesthetics bring additional points - commission prefers spherical TV sets) B) Power engineering - create self-sufficient lighting units (i.e. silmarills, phials etc)

• Test 5 (Agriculture) - grow crops and flax

• Test 6 (Housewivery) - bake buns out of the crops you grew, weave coats and mats out of the flax, create carnival costumes out of natural materials (i.e. wolve hides, bat skins, own hair etc)

• Test 7 (Martial arts) - manage to stick the sword into the foot of Morgoth. The timetable similar to that of test 1

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