Galadriel's intentions.

[Halbarad]

Boromir was correct in saying that Galadriel offered that which she did not have the power to give. All they had to do to get what they desired was

to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest

. I think her reasons for doing this were to temper the individuals, to make them realise why they were really there. Better to do it while they're in a safe place, for they get to think about the choice and make a decision without doing it at a time or in a place where it could jeopardise the Quest. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and if she could get the link to crack early, so much the better.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by lmp

I think she showed each one his own heart, and each one was tempted by what had been laid bare.

Galadriel was trying to show each of them their humanity. They are not infallible; despite oaths taken and friendships formed and the thinking that they are (insert positive trait here) enough to rise up to the task, they are still "humans" with desires and needs and weaknesses, which they would have to endure more and more as they advance in their Quest. I would say Galadriel was trying to show them the things that they could possibly value more than fulfilling their "duties" and leave them to assess themselves, whether or not they would give in to their desires.

Apparently, as their conversation later on reveals, Galadriel's testing has had an effect on each of them. For the first time in the Quest, they thought twice about their participation. "Why am I here in the first place? Is this the right thing for me to do? Can I really handle this? Would I give up the chance of a more peaceful life? What was I thinking when I chose to be part of the Fellowship?" And I believe it is in that time that they completely understood that each of them has a sense of ownership in the Fellowship. They are not merely there so that the tale of the Nine would be fulfilled. Though they cannot see it, they have a meaningful purpose for being in that group. And because of this, they would have to say no to what Galadriel has offered them. Maybe this is also why Galadriel tested them: to help them realize how important each of them are to the Fellowship.

[littlemanpoet]

Makes me wonder.... What potential did Boromir not fulfill?

[Boromir88]

Some intriguing and thoughtful things have been posted, I'm starting to enjoy this thread more and more....

Feanor,

I viewed it much as I view the times when my mother gives me choices. Or not actually *gives* them to me, but shows them to me.

A good connection. I think she offered each one of them the easy way out of things, but there might be more to that. In the Mirror of Galadriel, when she offers Sam a trip home, she also shows him what could happen if he strays from the path, and takes the easy way out. It's like she's showing him the positive and negatives, and leaves the decision up to him. I wonder if she did that to each on of the members? We know she tested each one, and offered them something, but did she show each one the consequences? It's peculiar how when she studies each one of them, Boromir is the only one (I believe) who withdraws his gaze.

Halbarad, good point, if they turned away, they may get what they desired, but then come the consequences. It's interesting how Lhunardawen brings up oaths. They took oaths, they weren't bound by any oath (atleast according to Elrond) to stay with the Fellowship. But, they were bound to Frodo, and as long as they were in the Fellowship they would do what they could to help him succeed. Now Elrond says they aren't bound by an oath to stay in the Fellowship, but Galadriel is coming across as it would be unwise to abandon Frodo. Could it have to deal with fate, or morality? Now that they are in, for the better they have to stay in, and if they turn away, comes the consequences? Boromir turns away, and he ends up dying.

lmp, interesting question, I think it's just the overwhelming pressure from his father. Yes, Boromir was an arrogant man, that wanted men to flock to his banner, and get fame and glory. However, Denethor instilled that within Boromir. Denethor counted on Boromir to "bring him a mighty gift" and save Gondor. Denethor believed Boromir was Gondor's only hope.

[littlemanpoet]

I guess, Boromir88, that I was looking at "potential" the other way around. Not what Denethor hoped for his son, but what Boromir could have been by being true to himself and thus to the Fellowship. We see glimpses early and late of what Boromir had to offer, saving the hobbits from frozen death on Caradhras, and his sacrificial attempt at the end to save them from the orcs.

Granted, if the orcs had not captured Merry and Pippin, then the Ents would never have flooded Orthanc nor Gandalf healed Theoden; but..... Frodo and Sam still would have left the rest of them behind amid the chaos of so many orcs. What if Boromir had never tried to wrest the Ring from Frodo? Never have gone up the hill after him? I realize "what ifs" are vain in terms of the story, but I find they can often lead to fresh insight into themes and characters nonetheless. Any takers? Should I start a new thread? Has this one already been done?

[Boromir88]

lmp, more thinking questions...gotta love it . Those are things I've expressed my thoughts on a couple times on these forums is, what if Boromir hadn't of tried ot take the Ring from Frodo? Well then, I believe two things, One) He wouldn't have left the Fellowship. Or two, he would have been captured by Saruman's orcs.

1. Boromir was the final nudge Frodo needed to get out of the Fellowship. Even after Boromir went nuts, Frodo still found it hard to leave, he had to convince himself..."They would understand, yes, Sam would understand." If Boromir, hadn't of tried to take the Ring, Frodo probably would have stayed in the Fellowship. And then who knows what would happen next, more chaos than what was caused when Boromir tried to take the ring?

2. You also have to remember the threat of orcs are around. Aragorn fears orcs and tells Frodo don't wonder off...

"The enemy is on the easter shore, we know; but I fear that the Orcs may already be on this side of the water."

"Very well, Frodo son of Drogo," he said. "You shall have an hour, and you shall be alone. We will stay here for a while. But do not stray far or out of call."

Then Boromir reinforces this, when he convienently meets up with Frodo...

"I was afraid for you, Frodo," he said, coming forward. "If Aragorn is right and Orcs are near, then none of us should wander alone,..."

Orcs are around, and Boromir (grant it unintentionally) gets Frodo out of there before the Orcs come swarming in. If Boromir hadn't of gone looking for Frodo, would Frodo have gotten away? Maybe, maybe not.

This brings to another possibility (oh I love these). If Boromir never tried to take the ring, and was successful defending Merry and Pippin. Then I can see the company heading to Minas Tirith. Frodo wouldn't have that final nudge to leave, since Boromir didn't make him run. We know Boromir is heading to Minas Tirith, Legolas and Gimli both say they would go to Minas Tirith. Surely, after Boromir saved Merry and Pippin they would go to Minas Tirith. Leaves Frodo, Sam, and Aragorn, possibly against going. However, Aragorn already pledged to travel to Minas Tirith with Boromir. And if Arry agrees Frodo and Sam are right along.

[Boromir88]

Another interesting thought just occured to me. Galadriel too had desired to use the ring to overthrow Sauron. However, she was able to resist this. Galadriel saw the same desire in Boromir, and perhaps just wanted him to confront it like she did. Thinking, that if the ring just lays "dormant," within Boromir, only more trouble and doom would arise. She wanted to have Boromir confront his desire, in hopes that he could succeed. Then again, as discussed above, just creates this huge ripple effect if Boromir had not tried to take the ring from Frodo.

[Neferchoirwen]

Originally Posted by Halbarad

Boromir was correct in saying that Galadriel offered that which she did not have the power to give. All they had to do to get what they desired was . I think her reasons for doing this were to temper the individuals, to make them realise why they were really there. Better to do it while they're in a safe place, for they get to think about the choice and make a decision without doing it at a time or in a place where it could jeopardise the Quest. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and if she could get the link to crack early, so much the better.

It's more like she was sort of giving them a sort of orientation for what they are about to go through, as well as giving them a sense of purpose in this crossroads of decision making. They are there, after all, at the point of no return.

What Galadriel did in giving them things was to remind them in the course of their journey/quest is that there is a reason as to why they are in it. The same thing for the actual gifts that she gave them. They came from all over, and each had a story to it (except maybe Galadriel's hair, but means a lot to a dwarf, doesn't it?) and they were all given as gifts to individual people at a time such as this.

[littlemanpoet]

Pure speculation, but what do you suppose Merry and Pippin were both so close-mouthed about?

[Lathriel]

As I was reading this thread I also got an idea. What if Galadriel looked in their thoughts in order to make them realize what they actually wanted to do. She put before them the things that they didn't want to see or didn't want to think about. For example Sam really wanted to go home but he didn't want to leave Frodo. He didn't think about going home because that would make him feel extremely guilty.
Thus she also awakened Borormir's longning for the ring. He probabaly already wanted the ring but he kept those thoughts deep within himself because he didn't want to be seen as weak or as a danger to the company.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I think Galadriel saw something in the mirror ...

Here's my thoughts on Galadriel.

She broke the Fellowship on purpose, because she realized that they could only succeed if they went their separate ways. This comes from a great deal of foresight, but is a lot more reckless than the plans of Gandalf or Elrond.

She tested each member of the Fellowship, and then planted a seed of mistrust in Frodo towards Boromir, who she perceived Frodo feared the most in their group.

Then, responding toward that suspicious lack of faith (Boromir had been saving Frodo and the gang from peril for months by that point and staying completely true to his word), Boromir got impatient. And since Galadriel tempted him with the thought of using the Ring of Power ... he lost control of himself.

Obviously the Ring played a part in that, a big part ... in tempting him, but had she not planted this seed of doubt, I think he'd have managed to keep in control.

In this way, Galadriel worked a lot like Saruman, manipulating the perceptions of the Fellowship.

But, she didn't do it for her own gain (well ... in a way she did) ... she did it because she realized that the Fellowship were having trouble deciding their path, and that Frodo had to go it alone ... Gollum following or not. I don't think she expected Sam to be brave enough to accompany Frodo, underestimating his simplicity.

She furthered this rift in the Fellowship with the gifts she gave them. She gave Frodo something to help him find his way in the utter blackness of Mordor ... but the only places dark enough to need the Phial were Shelob's Cave and the Crack of Doom ... so presumably it was for finding the way to the lava torrents, because who in their right mind would expect Frodo to go Shelob's way?

She gave Sam rope ... which she thought would help the passage of Emyn Muil, among other things ... but she gave Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, Pippin and Merry weapons. She wanted them going to war.

Gimli's parting gift was a special case. He of all the Fellowship was least connected with the Fall of Sauron, and she wanted him to form bonds with Legolas, and with elves, so that he was willing to fight for their salvation.

Now, I don't think in playing Frodo off of Boromir, and vice versa, she intended for Boromir to die. Confrontation maybe, but the idea would be, Frodo would run off, and the rest of them would ride to war, and the return of the King to Gondor.

I have serious conspiracy theories towards Galadriel's motives ... but like she said about her mirror, it shows some things that have not yet come to pass, and don't always come to pass unless somebody turns from their path in order to prevent that.

Maybe she saw the split of the Fellowship, and decided to test the members and help prevent it, but in doing so, actually made the Fellowship divide herself. That's the problem with using things like the Mirror.

That, Downers, is my take. I hope it paints the Lady of the Wood in a whole new light.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This is a fascinating theory, Keeper! I think there could possibly be some elements of truth to it; however, there is one flaw in your statement about Galadriel's gifts to the other members of the Fellowship:

she gave Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, Pippin and Merry weapons

As a matter of fact, she gave only Legolas a weapon, the bow and arrows. Aragorn received a sheath for his sword; Boromir, Merry and Pippin received golden/silver belts. Granted, tradition has those as signs of knighthood, but they were not (primarily ) intended for use as a weapon.

[The Saucepan Man]

Great thoughts, Keeper. What you say makes good sense to me. One further thought, though:

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

I don't think she expected Sam to be brave enough to accompany Frodo, underestimating his simplicity.

I wonder if the opposite might be true. Perhaps she saw that, if the Fellowship was to break, Frodo would need a companion. One who was courageous and loyal, who would keep Frodo's spirits up and who would not desert him. The obvious choice would be the Hobbits, rather than one of the "warriors", since they would be as adept as Frodo at hiding themselves and moving covertly.

So that would leave Sam, Merry and Pippin. And of those, Sam would be the most obvious choice, given his nature and his pre-existing bond of loyalty to Frodo. But perhaps she tempted all three of the Hobbits with thoughts of their homeland, with the aim of reinforcing their resolve to continue (or prompting them to give up if they did not have such resolve) and with the hope that at least one of them would accompany Frodo on the final stage of his journey.

Possibly, she hoped that all three would accompany Frodo. Certainly, all three were loyal to, and had a strong bond of friendship with, him. But, as matters turned out, it was only Sam who knew Frodo's mind sufficiently to follow him when he made to set off on his own.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I agree Saucepan, that could definitely be what she tempted Merry and Pippin with. Obviously when she realized Sam was the best choice, she showed him a little glimpse of what could be happening back home in the Mirror as a further test, and then when he passed that one, it was pretty much guaranteed.

As for Merry and Pippin, obviously they never got a chance to go with Frodo.

Other than that ...

Boromir, Merry and Pippin's belts, and Aragorn's sheath ...

What use are things of value like gold and silver when it comes to remaining undetected, and going into the black heart of Mordor? Especially if Frodo didn't make it out, what would be the point in his carrying anything of value that was frivelous (the Mithril coat obviously doesn't count because of the tremendous practical value).

But then, you could argue that she did have hope of them returning, because she gave Sam that Mallorn seed and the Lorien-soil.

But then, I'd say ... that's something she had plenty of, to her own people of little value, which she didn't think she'd have a chance of giving again after the first time ... and since Sam's vision in the mirror had to do with the cutting down of trees in the Shire, she thought it'd be nice to help him personally exact retribution if he ever made it home.

We know she likes personally solving problems ... she personally demolished Dol Guldur after Celeborn and the Galadhrim destroyed Sauron's northern forces.

Everything she gave seems to have served a purpose ...

Except Boromir's belt ... but then, it along with the boat, seemed to show Faramir that there were strange things involved in Boromir's death, and prevented him from jumping to conclusions. Unlikely ... but the only way I can see a point in Boromir's gift.

And slightly off topic for just a second ... I really want to visualize those battles between Celeborn, Thranduil, Grimbeorn, Dain, and Brand, and the Orcs of the Grey and Misty Mountains. Somebody should make an LOTR Graphic Novel ...

Okay ... back on to topic ...

DISCUSS!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

She gave Sam rope ... which she thought would help the passage of Emyn Muil, among other things ...

Just a little thing: Galadriel didn't give the rope to Sam, Sam himself picked the rope up from a boat. (I imagine there were ropes in each boat.)

[littlemanpoet]

But would you say that if it wasn't for Boromir trying to take the Ring from Frodo, and causing Frodo wanting to get away, Aragorn still would have wanted to go to Minas Tirith?

Did Aragorn decide to go to Minas Tirith before, or after, he knew that Frodo had left all but Sam behind? His promise to Boromir was what set his decision in stone. Seems to me that Aragorn made up his mind before he even knew Frodo had left. (I could be wrong).

If so, I guess this has an effect on some of the hyptheses being aired here.

[Son of Númenor]

From The Ring Goes South:

'I would have begged you to come,' said Frodo, 'only I thought you were going to Minas Tirith with Boromir.'

'I am,' said Aragorn. 'And the Sword-that-was-Broken shall be re-forged ere I set out to war. But your road and our road lie together for many hundreds of miles. Therefore Boromir will also be in the Company. He is a valiant man.'

[Lathriel]

I think Aragorn was constantly changing his mind about going to Minas Tirith. I don't think he decided untill Amon Hen where he would go.
I don't think Galadriel had much control over that. She could give the fellowship hints and warnings but since she was not completely involved she couldn't actively make the desicions for them.
Also as was said in the first book, "Do not go to the elves for council,for they will say both yes and no."

So I guess I'm trying to say that although Galadriel gave them hints she would never openly have revealed her intentions behind her actions.Plus that in the end it was still the fellowship who would make the ultimate decision.