The Emblems of Religion don't belong ... or do they?

[Lindolirian]

The solemn ceremonies on Meneltarma seem to exemplify what ever religious events might take place in Arda. It was a very sacred event, in which no one was permitted to speak (except the King), all wore pure white ceremonial robes and the emissaries of Manwë never failed to appear (that is until the practices were abandoned). Also the Standing Silence, on the surface, is a tribute to the memory of Numenor, but could easily be construed as a memorial to those sacred thanksgivings to Iluvatar. These are some examples of emblems of religion but Tolkien did, however, keep religion and worship in the background in his stories rather than as a driving force as it was in the history of our world.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

The solemn ceremonies on Meneltarma seem to exemplify what ever religious events might take place in Arda. It was a very sacred event, in which no one was permitted to speak (except the King), all wore pure white ceremonial robes and the emissaries of Manwë never failed to appear (that is until the practices were abandoned). Also the Standing Silence, on the surface, is a tribute to the memory of Numenor, but could easily be construed as a memorial to those sacred thanksgivings to Iluvatar. These are some examples of emblems of religion but Tolkien did, however, keep religion and worship in the background in his stories rather than as a driving force as it was in the history of our world.

Is it that these remembrances and solemn ceremonies seem right and natural for the characters to do, meaning that they do not seem forced nor unrealistic? Tolkien may have wanted to show that there was some religion in his world, but not one in particular. These examples enhance the story, but are not the story. To leave all religious allusions/examples out may have made the world seem more fantastic than he desired.

None of the examples have a direct link to something in my current culture, and when reading them I didn't see any meaning beyond that people in Arda worshipped Iluvatar etc.

The Meneltarma ceremonies were detailed (to me) so that Sauron's debasement of the same could be seen. And the Standing Silence may have been used to show that these men were not common brigands with selfish ends, but noble men with a higher purpose.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Is it that these remembrances and solemn ceremonies seem right and natural for the characters to do, meaning that they do not seem forced nor unrealistic? Tolkien may have wanted to show that there was some religion in his world, but not one in particular. These examples enhance the story, but are not the story. To leave all religious allusions/examples out may have made the world seem more fantastic than he desired.

-emphasis mine.

Are you suggesting that ceremonies and religions in OUR time and place are forced or unrealistic? Because any religion that takes itself seriously MUST consider its practises, or some portion of them, and CERTAINLY its beliefs, to be natural and unforced.

I doubt that this is what you are suggesting, but it is certainly what you came across as saying on my first reading.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Are you suggesting that ceremonies and religions in OUR time and place are forced or unrealistic? Because any religion that takes itself seriously MUST consider its practises, or some portion of them, and CERTAINLY its beliefs, to be natural and unforced.

I doubt that this is what you are suggesting, but it is certainly what you came across as saying on my first reading.

Sorry for the poor choice of words. What I mean is that some writers/authors with lesser abilities at times feel the need to inject a particular something into a story for whatever reason, and so just slap it in haphazardly. In LOTR it just seems as natural for the Ithilien band to observe the Standing Silence as it is for them to eat and drink - I never felt that that scene was placed in the story so that Tolkien could make some theological point - if it were, then it was cleverly disguised.

Not to stray from the thread, but an example would be PJ's 'fireball of Saruman,' which to me seemed very out of place, out of character, forced, unnatual, etc.

Again apologies, and I will leave the discussion of religions to another forum.

[Imladris]

It certainly works very well in LotR. It was one of his primary criticisms of the works of C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams (fellow "inklings").

Do you agree or disagree that the emblems of religion don't belong in fantasy?

What were Tolkien's reasons for discluding them? Which reasons were valid back when he wrote? Are they still valid now?

By "emblems of religion" I'm assuming you mean emblems of religions such as Christianity, Catholocism, etc If I understand you aright, then I say they have no place in Fantasy or Mythology

The role of mythology is to make things more clear, transpose the abstract into the understandable In a word (or more), I think that fantasy/myth is beyond this world, and the religions of this world

Another reason I think they have no place is because the purpose of myth is to creat a real world I would think that putting a religious symbol would wrench the reader from the suspended state of disbelief back into this world Thus, religious symbols have no place, for they wrench the reader from that other world, back into this world

Edit: However, if I am mistaken in thinking of religion emblems as real religions but rather you mean it in the sense of Faramir and his men in that cave, as long as it is part of the story, and enhances it then it belongs

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Imladris

The role of mythology is to make things more clear, transpose the abstract into the understandable In a word (or more), I think that fantasy/myth is beyond this world, and the religions of this world

Not sure that I agree. I understand what you are saying in that religion is used to make the "abstract" more comprehensible. But on the other hand, religion has its 'fuzzy' areas where some components require faith to fill in gaps in knowledge/facts. Certain things cannot be reduced to cold hard text on a page, but have to be felt, experienced, lived, accepted.

And isn't mythology just another's perspective on one's religion? For example, I've always loved to read Greek/Roman mythology - stories about Zeus, Heracles, et al. Weren't these stories considered at a time to be 'religion?'

Wasn't Tolkien's purpose in writing the Silmarillion etc to create a mythology for Europe? Not sure if there is a church for the same (is it here?), but I like the way Tolkien's religion works.

[Imladris]

Hmmmm how to explain

Originally Posted by alatar

But on the other hand, religion has its 'fuzzy' areas where some components require faith to fill in gaps in knowledge/facts. Certain things cannot be reduced to cold hard text on a page, but have to be felt, experienced, lived, accepted.

According to Tolkien, myth and religion is hopelessly entangled I just think that the reason Tolkien did not put any religious symbol is because of that fact Myth, I think (and I use myth as Tolkien and Lewis understood i), is, in part to help us understand religion and the higher things in life But how can Myth help us understand when it uses the same symbols that may be causing confusion? As I said before, myth is beyond this world, thus the symbols of this world doesn't really have a place in it

I think that is why Till We have Faces is more mythic than say, The Chronicles of Narnia I don't recall any religious symbol (such as Aslan), yet it was by far more powerful than Chronicles of Narnia

And isn't mythology just another's perspective on one's religion? For example, I've always loved to read Greek/Roman mythology - stories about Zeus, Heracles, et al. Weren't these stories considered at a time to be 'religion?'.

I have heard that the people truly did not believe these stories, but made them up to help them understand their world Whether this is true, I do not know

[Son of Númenor]

I think that in this case Tolkien was objecting to the use of religious emblems from our own world (crucifixes, etc.) in fantasy, not depictions of religion in general.

Edit: Cross-posted with alatar, who made basically the same distinction.