Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I myself would have seen those scenes as 'no big thing' - but then I am coming at this from the perspective of the books, where it is clear that two figures such as Aragorn and Arwen could be entirely trusted not to 'go too far' as they would be all too aware that if they did then this would mean they were together for life.

Agreed. I've been trying to separate the books from the movies so that I get the 'full PJ experience.' Thought that in doing so I would understand some of the other posters in other threads more readily.

Plus again I see fantasy as including the 'dreamy romantic stuff' like the "Beauty and the Beast" TV series starring Linda Hamilton and Ron Perlman from the past. Any 'spit-swapping' was off screen, and the build up to 'the kiss' was in most cases longer than the actual kiss itself (by the way, yes, I am a guy... ).

But it's interesting that you say that us older viewers (well, speaking for myself, I'm older anyway...not to be impolite ) would be more likely to read something into such scenes, as we were probably more likely to have had parents who were highly cautious about our boyfriends/girlfriends when we were young. I don't get that sense, but I also do not have any children; maybe it is something which parents perceive?

It's possible that we are of the same generation, and most days it's the cliche of 'not the years but the miles.' Anyway, don't think that I see the scenes as more than they are due to being a parent (my oldest is into the 'no girls' stage of life), but possibly from being raised with cautious parents (and dating young women whose parents were the same) and having grown up in a part of the world in which everything takes place at least ten years after it happens elsewhere.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

It's possible that we are of the same generation, and most days it's the cliche of 'not the years but the miles.' Anyway, don't think that I see the scenes as more than they are due to being a parent (my oldest is into the 'no girls' stage of life), but possibly from being raised with cautious parents (and dating young women whose parents were the same) and having grown up in a part of the world in which everything takes place at least ten years after it happens elsewhere.

I think my own perspective must come from the fact that over the years I have always had many male friends and so would never have thought it odd to be in the company of men. To me, it seemed quite natural that Arwen and Aragorn could spend time alone and do little more than talk. Of course, they are a couple, and I think that's where some of the knowledge from the books comes in again. Tolkien made it clear that Elves tended to marry quite young (for an Elf at any rate) and have children young, so unless there was Elven contraception then it must also be assumed that they would abstain once their families were complete, or perhaps the 'urge' did not strike them (maybe once they had experienced nappies and howling etc. ).

But there I am again letting the books intrude on what the film portrays of this relationship...

Yet, in the films it was also made clear that Arwen was making an immeasurable sacrifice to give up her immortality to marry Aragorn. An intelligent viewer then might work out that to Arwen, this relationship would relatively speaking only last for what must have seemed mere 'weeks'. And so, it might be understandable that she would allow Aragorn to be as close to her as was possible before their marriage; she would after all want to enjoy his company as much as possible.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think my own perspective must come from the fact that over the years I have always had many male friends and so would never have thought it odd to be in the company of men. To me, it seemed quite natural that Arwen and Aragorn could spend time alone and do little more than talk. Of course, they are a couple, and I think that's where some of the knowledge from the books comes in again.

Not growing up in a monastery, I also had female friends in my life (even roomed with the same - what was I thinking? ), but with few exceptions (belching the alphabet was more of a male friend thing) these were treated just like their counterparts. They were friends, and so appropriate boundaries naturally ensued.

Arwen and Aragorn, though friends, were obviously much more as demonstrated by the kiss on the bridge scene, and so more could be assumed.

Tolkien made it clear that Elves tended to marry quite young (for an Elf at any rate) and have children young, so unless there was Elven contraception then it must also be assumed that they would abstain once their families were complete, or perhaps the 'urge' did not strike them (maybe once they had experienced nappies and howling etc. ).

Having three little ones - one still in nappies, if I understand the word - I haven't the excess energy required to contemplate elvish physiology, gestation, fertility, etc and elf/man hybrids.

Yet, in the films it was also made clear that Arwen was making an immeasurable sacrifice to give up her immortality to marry Aragorn. An intelligent viewer then might work out that to Arwen, this relationship would relatively speaking only last for what must have seemed mere 'weeks'. And so, it might be understandable that she would allow Aragorn to be as close to her as was possible before their marriage; she would after all want to enjoy his company as much as possible.

That works for me, as again this couple is something special not seen every day in Middle Earth. And if we assume from what was presented in the movies that Elrond is prescient, and he and Arwen 'see' Eldarion, then it's pretty much a done deal anyway unless Arwen takes the boat or Sauron is victorious.

Was also thinking about Aragorn's behavior around Eowyn. Their time together was limited, he really wasn't chasing her, but to me he acted more appropriately.

[tar-ancalime]

Was also thinking about Aragorn's behavior around Eowyn. Their time together was limited, he really wasn't chasing her, but to me he acted more appropriately.

That's interesting, because Aragorn was also alone with Eowyn (ROTK EE, when he "tucks her in" and she tells him about her dream), and while watching this scene for the first time I actually thought it was odd, that the travel-stained (if battle-proven) stranger should be allowed into the room with the White Lady of Rohan while she is sleeping. And although he doesn't behave as tenderly towards Eowyn as he does towards Arwen, it's clear that Eowyn reads something into the attention he pays her.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by tar-ancalime

That's interesting, because Aragorn was also alone with Eowyn (ROTK EE, when he "tucks her in" and she tells him about her dream), and while watching this scene for the first time I actually thought it was odd, that the travel-stained (if battle-proven) stranger should be allowed into the room with the White Lady of Rohan while she is sleeping. And although he doesn't behave as tenderly towards Eowyn as he does towards Arwen, it's clear that Eowyn reads something into the attention he pays her.

Was it more brotherly? Or, because of their age/maturity difference, did he not see her as a possible mate/companion but as a little girl child? Not that he was ever considering 'unloving' Arwen.

And it was posted here (#30) regarding the strangeness of Eowyn's sleeping arrangement.

[Lalwendë]

About Aragorn being alone with Eowyn, I found that they presented her as leading a less 'sheltered' life than Arwen; she is seen serving drinks in a hall full of shouting drunken men immediately before the 'sleeping' scene in the Hall, which would suggest she is more used to being around such company. Though it did seem as though she'd been turfed out of her bedchamber and made to sleep on the sofa!

The scenes dealing with Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn do make it clear just who he loves, and Aragorn is shown to behave in a gentlemanly fashion to Eowyn. I did not detect any instance in the films where he could have been accused of leading her into thinking he might have had feelings for her. It is also made clear how much Aragorn and Arwen love one another, and the nature of Arwen's sacrifice can be deduced. That I found to be handled well. Yet a few people have asked me why Aragorn didn't choose Eowyn once he had met her; perhaps that says a lot more about those viewers than about either film or book!

[Mithalwen]

I would have said there was a fairly obvious chemistry in TTT - far more than between Aragorn and Arwen - although I have warmed to Liv Tyler since I have learned more of how she put the breaks on the distortion of Arwen's character - I think it is one area where the late cast change shows up. While I would never swap back, for me Vggo IS Aragorn, I think Liv and Stuart Townsend would have been a more convincing couple, and I would love to see Miranda Otto and Viggo in a film where they were a couple....