Tactical Discussion-Warg Charge

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But how big do you mean when you say a wolf on Steroids? If they were ridden at times they would need to be substantially larger than the average wolf. I would say at least a lion size but even still would that be sufficiently large to carry an orc into combat and be effective?

I think it depends on the kind of orcs that rode these wolfs, there are different kind of orcs of different sizes. Small races of orcs would be weak as infantry, but very usefull as wolfriders.
I couldn't find any information about what kind of orcs rode the wargs. Keeper of Dol Guldur mentioned that they were small, perhaps he knows.

As for fighting against wolfriders, that would not be easy. When defending a castle I don't tihnk wolves are a big thretah to stone walls, but in open fields (and I assume that is where Saruman used his wolfrides are that is where they would be most effective) they would be veyr hard to stop.
I think arrows and barred wire would indee dbe effetcive methods, anything that allows you to stay a few armlengths away from the wargs. Also, in the hobbit Bilbo and the dwarfs were followed by wolves and climbed in trees to escape them, so perhaps Archers on high places like in trees or watchtowers would be able to fight them.
Normal wolves are afraid of fire, so perhaps that would also be a way to fight or at leats scare the wargs. But it is very likely that demonic wolves like wargs are not afraid of fire.

[WarBringer]

Actually, according to the hobbit, wargs are afraid of fire, because that is precisely what Gandalf uses to kill several wolves and wargs.

[Felagund]

I have heard much about traps and pitfalls and the like in this thread... but this brings a question to my mind... has anyone actually seen any record in any battle of middle-earth that speaks of field fortifications, or the use of such things as wire and traps? I for one have not, with the sole exception of the wall surrounding the Pelennor fields, which was abandoned as being undefensible in the afce of Sauron's onslaught.
It seems to me that there is not much in the way of stratgey or formation in the combats of middle-earth. The fighting to me seems more of the "old" style, ie pre-Roman British wildmen charges. I have heard no tell of shield walls, or wedges for cavalry, or any mixed formation of pikes and archers. It seems to be all charge and counter-charge. However, to be fair, the most detailed battle accounts I have seen come from the Silmarillion, so perhaps tactics did evolve over the course of a few ages? I doubt it.
The account of the Battle of the Five Armies, which conveniently enough demonstrates the use of wolf-riders, was, as far as I could tell, a shoving match between the two sides. The elves and men took up positions on the arms of the mountain, the dwarves took their stand at the base, and then the black tide swept into them. Here begins the shoving match, as the elves and men sallied forth from the mountainside, pushing back the goblins and wolves with great slaughter, until Bolg and his bodyguard brought up reinforcements and pushed the allies back up the mountain.
Also referenced in that battle, it is said the Elven-King brought archers and spearmen, but no mention is made of any formation. The battles seem to be a mass of one-on-one fights rather than formations and companies brought to bear against each other.

On another note, pertaining to combat in Middle-earth, personal defense doesn't seem to be an issue to most parties involved. The Rangers of the North on the fields of the Pelennor had either swords, spears, or bows, but no mention was made of armor or shields of any sort. The wood elves encountered by The Grey Company in Lorien carried bows and swords; again no armor. However, I also assume these troops are not meant to be infantry, per se, so this may account for the lack of armor. How heavily armored are most middle-earth combatants?

I have deviated however. The best way to take a charge of wargs (ridden or unridden) is definitely NOT with cavalry. I doubt the horses could stand to charge the wolves, plus the use of horse as weapon is lost, because the warg is a much better weapon. Heavy infantry is the only way to do it, regardless of how they are equipped. I bet dwarves would do well, as axes could do horrible damage to both wolf and rider. Sorry for rambling, it's my first post and I got excited.

[mormegil]

Well first I would like to say welcome to The Downs to Felagund. And than I would like to address your question.

I agree that we don't see traps and wires used in the books but, as I am one of those that mentions it in this thread, I would assert that I put it forth as my way of handling a warg charge. Not saying this is how. I found that if they could do that there is a possibility that it wouuld be effective.

Secondly, I think that Tolkien didn't write much about warfare tatics and that's why we speculate.

So you are suggesting though that heavily armored warriors or dwarves, again heavily armored, would be able to stop a charge? I like the thought, however, I wonder if you would incorporate archers shooting the Wargs before the onslaught? Would pikemen play any role? Do you think that Men, Elves, or Dwarves would be best in this and why? I wouldn't pick dwarves, while stong and steadfast I don't think they would have the needed speed to dodge the Wargs. Which leave us, in my opinion, as elves or men.

I don't have much time now to consider that one but I would like your opinion on that.

[Felagund]

I guess elves would have to be the obvious choice. If any of the Noldor in exile at Rivendell (before they left) could have been coaxed out to fight a warg-charge to settle our debate, I'd say they'd perform the best. The High Elves were by far the best warriors of all the free peoples of Middle-Earth. They are stronger, and faster, and more resistant to injury and wounds than men, and the Light of the Trees would be still in their eyes (or the Light of Aman in their faces, Tolkien uses both phrases excessively in the Silmarillion). The elves were meant to be the mightiest peoples of Arda. So I'd say I guess they'd do the best. It would be a cake-walk for Glorfindel (who it is possible might have been the same Glorfindel who slew the Balrog at the fall of Gondolin? What's the concensus on that one?).

As to tactics, obviously mixed formation pikes, archers. A reserve of melee armed troops to plug gaps in the line or dispatch any of the wargs who got inside the reach of the pikes would also be a necessity.

[WarBringer]

Before I comment on this, I would like to commend Felagund for his excellent posts. Welcome to the Downs!

First, I want to say that we need to remember that the discussion of battle formation is not necessarily an exciting read. and in general would have clashed with Tolkein's goal of writing a folk tale for Britain. ALL ARMIES, no matter what, need formation. Some movies like the idea of masses of "good guys" charging with the leader at the head and wreaking havoc, but this is unrealistic. Armies have used formation since the start of war, and since I would place the army type of most armies of LOTR in our middle ages, it is safe to assume that they would also use formation. An example of formation in LOTR would be Rohan's eored, which is a cavalry formation. Order and organization almost always prevails in warfare(i.e. Rome versues the Barbarians).


Secondly, and more on topic, I believe that Elves would be best to face Wargs. Dwarves are steadfast but like the arm length and height to deal with a strong cavalry charge, and honestly, men are simply less talented then elves, if similar in build. Elves are agile, skillfull warriors with strong weapons, the ability to launch ranged attacks with great accuracy, and excellence at swordplay. To use Felagund's example, an elf such as Glorfindel would not have much trouble with wargs, so it is safe to assume that an army of elves of somewhat lesser skill could also topple a charge of wargs.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Felagund

It would be a cake-walk for Glorfindel (who it is possible might have been the same Glorfindel who slew the Balrog at the fall of Gondolin? What's the concensus on that one?).

I don't know that there is a concensus on that point. It seems to be a fairly difficult debate. Not quite the question "do balrogs have wings" but it's up there.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell is indeed one and the same person; I don't have a quote at hand to give proof, but try using the search function for his name, and you should come up with some helpful previous discussions.