A Most Unusual Dwarf - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 04-30-2005, 04:57 AM

Yes, you make a valid point that the tone of the two works is so different that comparisons of TH to LotR are tricky at best.

Still, there's another Dwarf worth consideration by way of comparison, which is Mîm, from the Sil. If anything, the tone of the Sil is even more dire than that of LotR, especially in the tale of Turin Turambar! What kind of character does Mîm turn out to have? It has been a long time since I read this, but just scanning based on the index in the short time I have right now (Sil pp. 202-206), Mîm was a traitor and a liar, and a coward. Granted, he grieved for his sons, and had cause for redress of wrongs, but he betrayed good men to orcs. Yes, he did it to save his life, but he still did it.

The Hobbit is loaded with references back to the legends in the Sil. So here we have a description of Dwarven character which I think applies to most Dwarves, whether in the Sil, TH, or LotR. Which is why Gimli stands out as unusual. So there's my defense of this definition. Any takers as to the original questions?

Bêthberry · 04-30-2005, 08:14 AM

littlemanpoet,

I have little time now to peruse the context of your quotation from The Hobbit, but something did strike me as I read it here, so I throw this idea out for consideration.

The quotation seems to me to partake very strongly of the kind of humour in TH and also, more tellingly, of the kinds of dwarves found in traditional folk tales.

I wonder if the differences can be explored through considering this idea: that in TH Tolkien was working particularly with the characteristics of dwarves from old mythologies (which might also pertain to Mîm, but I would want to reread his story closer before I completely subscribed to this idea) but that in LotR he was striving to broaden those characteristics along the lines of (for want of a better word) realism, just as he attempted to develope the idea of elves and give them a fuller psychology. Part of the nature of Tolkien's writing to show a progression of ideas, development. And I hope you understand that I don't mean realism as opposed to fairie here.

And, no, I won't conclude with that overused food metaphor. How about a sip of wine to stimulate discussion?

littlemanpoet · 04-30-2005, 09:35 AM

Fair enough, Bethberry. I await your stimulating erudition on this matter.

That said, I hope that someone will please consider the questions I posed above, of Gimli's development within the story of LotR, which is certainly in keeping with the realism Bethberry speaks of?

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-30-2005, 10:15 AM

I am a great fan of the character of Gimli in the book, and would very much like to join in this discussion. However, it will have to wait a bit, as I'm busy preparing for the Barrow-Downs birthday party and don't have the necessary time to research for an answer to your question, LMP. Rest assured - I'll be back!

mormegil · 04-30-2005, 10:45 AM

Well in consideration of Gimli independent of any other dwarf, yes he grew immensely in the LoTR as did all others who were a part of it, with the possible exception of Boromir and Denethor. That's what this kind of adventure/trial will do; it will either cause you to grow and develop or to fail. By far one of the greatest things Gimli did was help mend the rift between elves and dwarves that was apparent at the time. So, yes Gimli rose above what the conception is of most dwarves.

I do have a bit to say about Mim. I don't agree that Mim is a good character to base behavioral norms for dwarves on. Mim is a petty dwarf and from my understanding, petty dwarves are different than the great dwarven civilizations that we know and are discussing (i.e. Durin's folk)

eowyntje · 05-02-2005, 02:08 AM

I don't have a lot of knowledge of HoME and other writings mentioning the Dwarfs, but looking at the Lotr itself, I'd say it is very likely that Gimli was no ordinary dwarf, for the simple reason that all members o the fellowship were different from their own race in a way.
All 4 the hobbits were more adventurous then normal hobbits, Aragorn is nothing like normal humans, Boromir represents the humans weak side, but is nothing like the other humans describred in Lotr. Gandalf turns out to be no ordinary wizard, and as for legolas, he's quite normal in the beginning but changes when he befriends with a dwarf.
It is veyr likely that Tolkien made Gimli different form his race, more brave for example, because all the members of the fellowship are different from their race and they were the poeple he liked to write about. None of his characters were completely like the discription of their race, they all had their own traits and were unique creatures, and I think that goes for gimli too.

Lobelia · 05-02-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eowyntje

...looking at the Lotr itself, I'd say it is very likely that Gimli was no ordinary dwarf, for the simple reason that all members o the fellowship were different from their own race in a way.
All 4 the hobbits were more adventurous then normal hobbits, Aragorn is nothing like normal humans, Boromir represents the humans weak side, but is nothing like the other humans describred in Lotr. Gandalf turns out to be no ordinary wizard, and as for legolas, he's quite normal in the beginning but changes when he befriends with a dwarf.

Nice thought, very true - they were all different from other members of their races - mind you, I don't think there were any "ordinary" wizards! I think that any growth on Gimli's part is posible because he was, from the beginning, very unlike the dwarves in TH. Gloin at Rivendell had grown from the Gloin in TH. And more - the dwarves who sent Sauron's representative packing were very brave and not at all greedy for gold. I think of dwarves in general as brave and feisty like Gimli the orc-killer! I suspect the ones in the HOME books are more like the ones in Norse myth and not to be compared with our lovely Gimli.

drigel · 05-02-2005, 07:36 AM

I think the nature of the mission for the 9 walkers was such that it placed Gimli the dwarf in a most unusual position. Here at the onset, he was not just a representative of his kingdom, but a representative of his entire race. I see him at the beginning seeing himself as almost the appointed ambassador to the United Nations, and the stakes are such that if he fails, then all dwarves would fall one by one, along with the rest of the free peoples. A highly monumental task that didnt include finding and procuring gold / wealth for himself, his family, or his lord.

I also see the character developing with the authors view of dwarves all along LOTR, especially in the relationship with Legolas. The early works show a more raw approach to dwarves, but perhaps that is congruent. That was an earlier time in ME, where relationships with elves and men being rougher and the blood in those dwarvish veins running hotter. Its a nice way to tap into those earlier times by using the bonding of Gimli and Legolas to regain a trust that was lost millenia ago...

Aiwendil · 04-30-2005, 10:13 AM

The quote from The Hobbit got me thinking about the different ways Dwarves are portrayed throughout Tolkien's works. If we take an overview, I don't think that we find the paucity of heroic Dwarves that The Hobbit suggests. It's true that Mim is not a particularly admirable figure. Nor are the Dwarves of Nogrod who quarrel with Thingol, particularly their lord (Naugladur). But the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost were quite heroic on several occasions, particularly in the First and Fifth Battles of Beleriand. Azaghal's valor there may be set against Naugladur's acts.

But the truth is that Tolkien's conception of the Dwarves changed quite significantly over the course of the development of the Legendarium. In the Book of Lost Tales, they appear only in the story of their quarrel with Thingol and in the person of Mim; they are said to have great traffic with both the Noldoli and the Orcs and soldiers of Melko. In the Quenta Noldorinwa of 1930 it is said that "they are not friend of Valar or of Eldar or of Men, nor do they serve Morgoth; though they are in many things more like his people" and that the Feanorians "made war" upon them. This passage was later softened so that the Feanorians instead "had converse with them", and the statement that they were "more like" the people of Melko was removed. In the Quenta Noldorinwa the heroism of the Dwarves at the Nirnaeth is entirely absent; the Dwarves "went not themselves to war. 'For we do not know the rights of this quarrel,' they said, 'and we are friends of neither side - until it hath the mastery.'" This rather cold and calculating account was essentially retained in the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion.

The view of Dwarves immediately prior to the writing of The Hobbit, then, was not very complimentary at all. In fact, their portrayal in The Hobbit, even including the quote given by littlemanpoet, is significantly more positive than anything written about them previously.

Later ("long after", CRT guesses), a note was put against the QS passage that portrayed the Dwarves as opportunistic with regard to the Nirnaeth: "Not true of Dwarvish attitude". This, and the introduction of Azaghal that followed from it, seem to be a clear indication that Tolkien's ideas about the Dwarves had changed. Even Mim is portrayed far more sympathetically in the Narn than in the Book of Lost Tales.

So I think that the harsh statement found in The Hobbit can be seen as a vestige of the old conception of the Dwarves; by the time of LotR, the view had changed so that a noble Dwarf like Gimli was not all that astonishing.

04-30-2005, 04:57 AM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	apples and oranges, but... Yes, you make a valid point that the tone of the two works is so different that comparisons of TH to LotR are tricky at best. Still, there's another Dwarf worth consideration by way of comparison, which is Mîm, from the Sil. If anything, the tone of the Sil is even more dire than that of LotR, especially in the tale of Turin Turambar! What kind of character does Mîm turn out to have? It has been a long time since I read this, but just scanning based on the index in the short time I have right now (Sil pp. 202-206), Mîm was a traitor and a liar, and a coward. Granted, he grieved for his sons, and had cause for redress of wrongs, but he betrayed good men to orcs. Yes, he did it to save his life, but he still did it. The Hobbit is loaded with references back to the legends in the Sil. So here we have a description of Dwarven character which I think applies to most Dwarves, whether in the Sil, TH, or LotR. Which is why Gimli stands out as unusual. So there's my defense of this definition. Any takers as to the original questions?

04-30-2005, 08:14 AM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	littlemanpoet, I have little time now to peruse the context of your quotation from The Hobbit, but something did strike me as I read it here, so I throw this idea out for consideration. The quotation seems to me to partake very strongly of the kind of humour in TH and also, more tellingly, of the kinds of dwarves found in traditional folk tales. I wonder if the differences can be explored through considering this idea: that in TH Tolkien was working particularly with the characteristics of dwarves from old mythologies (which might also pertain to Mîm, but I would want to reread his story closer before I completely subscribed to this idea) but that in LotR he was striving to broaden those characteristics along the lines of (for want of a better word) realism, just as he attempted to develope the idea of elves and give them a fuller psychology. Part of the nature of Tolkien's writing to show a progression of ideas, development. And I hope you understand that I don't mean realism as opposed to fairie here. And, no, I won't conclude with that overused food metaphor. How about a sip of wine to stimulate discussion? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

04-30-2005, 10:15 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I am a great fan of the character of Gimli in the book, and would very much like to join in this discussion. However, it will have to wait a bit, as I'm busy preparing for the Barrow-Downs birthday party and don't have the necessary time to research for an answer to your question, LMP. Rest assured - I'll be back! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-30-2005, 10:45 AM	#5
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	Well in consideration of Gimli independent of any other dwarf, yes he grew immensely in the LoTR as did all others who were a part of it, with the possible exception of Boromir and Denethor. That's what this kind of adventure/trial will do; it will either cause you to grow and develop or to fail. By far one of the greatest things Gimli did was help mend the rift between elves and dwarves that was apparent at the time. So, yes Gimli rose above what the conception is of most dwarves. I do have a bit to say about Mim. I don't agree that Mim is a good character to base behavioral norms for dwarves on. Mim is a petty dwarf and from my understanding, petty dwarves are different than the great dwarven civilizations that we know and are discussing (i.e. Durin's folk) __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

05-02-2005, 02:08 AM	#6
eowyntje Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 47	I don't have a lot of knowledge of HoME and other writings mentioning the Dwarfs, but looking at the Lotr itself, I'd say it is very likely that Gimli was no ordinary dwarf, for the simple reason that all members o the fellowship were different from their own race in a way. All 4 the hobbits were more adventurous then normal hobbits, Aragorn is nothing like normal humans, Boromir represents the humans weak side, but is nothing like the other humans describred in Lotr. Gandalf turns out to be no ordinary wizard, and as for legolas, he's quite normal in the beginning but changes when he befriends with a dwarf. It is veyr likely that Tolkien made Gimli different form his race, more brave for example, because all the members of the fellowship are different from their race and they were the poeple he liked to write about. None of his characters were completely like the discription of their race, they all had their own traits and were unique creatures, and I think that goes for gimli too. __________________ No matter what they think or what they do, No matter what they feel Or what they see in you, You're gonna get there, Whatever they say, And nobody's going to stand, in the way

04-30-2005, 09:35 AM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Fair enough, Bethberry. I await your stimulating erudition on this matter. That said, I hope that someone will please consider the questions I posed above, of Gimli's development within the story of LotR, which is certainly in keeping with the realism Bethberry speaks of?

05-02-2005, 07:36 AM	#8
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	A most unusual mission I think the nature of the mission for the 9 walkers was such that it placed Gimli the dwarf in a most unusual position. Here at the onset, he was not just a representative of his kingdom, but a representative of his entire race. I see him at the beginning seeing himself as almost the appointed ambassador to the United Nations, and the stakes are such that if he fails, then all dwarves would fall one by one, along with the rest of the free peoples. A highly monumental task that didnt include finding and procuring gold / wealth for himself, his family, or his lord. I also see the character developing with the authors view of dwarves all along LOTR, especially in the relationship with Legolas. The early works show a more raw approach to dwarves, but perhaps that is congruent. That was an earlier time in ME, where relationships with elves and men being rougher and the blood in those dwarvish veins running hotter. Its a nice way to tap into those earlier times by using the bonding of Gimli and Legolas to regain a trust that was lost millenia ago...

04-30-2005, 10:13 AM	#9
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	The quote from The Hobbit got me thinking about the different ways Dwarves are portrayed throughout Tolkien's works. If we take an overview, I don't think that we find the paucity of heroic Dwarves that The Hobbit suggests. It's true that Mim is not a particularly admirable figure. Nor are the Dwarves of Nogrod who quarrel with Thingol, particularly their lord (Naugladur). But the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost were quite heroic on several occasions, particularly in the First and Fifth Battles of Beleriand. Azaghal's valor there may be set against Naugladur's acts. But the truth is that Tolkien's conception of the Dwarves changed quite significantly over the course of the development of the Legendarium. In the Book of Lost Tales, they appear only in the story of their quarrel with Thingol and in the person of Mim; they are said to have great traffic with both the Noldoli and the Orcs and soldiers of Melko. In the Quenta Noldorinwa of 1930 it is said that "they are not friend of Valar or of Eldar or of Men, nor do they serve Morgoth; though they are in many things more like his people" and that the Feanorians "made war" upon them. This passage was later softened so that the Feanorians instead "had converse with them", and the statement that they were "more like" the people of Melko was removed. In the Quenta Noldorinwa the heroism of the Dwarves at the Nirnaeth is entirely absent; the Dwarves "went not themselves to war. 'For we do not know the rights of this quarrel,' they said, 'and we are friends of neither side - until it hath the mastery.'" This rather cold and calculating account was essentially retained in the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion. The view of Dwarves immediately prior to the writing of The Hobbit, then, was not very complimentary at all. In fact, their portrayal in The Hobbit, even including the quote given by littlemanpoet, is significantly more positive than anything written about them previously. Later ("long after", CRT guesses), a note was put against the QS passage that portrayed the Dwarves as opportunistic with regard to the Nirnaeth: "Not true of Dwarvish attitude". This, and the introduction of Azaghal that followed from it, seem to be a clear indication that Tolkien's ideas about the Dwarves had changed. Even Mim is portrayed far more sympathetically in the Narn than in the Book of Lost Tales. So I think that the harsh statement found in The Hobbit can be seen as a vestige of the old conception of the Dwarves; by the time of LotR, the view had changed so that a noble Dwarf like Gimli was not all that astonishing.