A Most Unusual Dwarf - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 04-30-2005, 09:35 AM

Fair enough, Bethberry. I await your stimulating erudition on this matter.

That said, I hope that someone will please consider the questions I posed above, of Gimli's development within the story of LotR, which is certainly in keeping with the realism Bethberry speaks of?

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-30-2005, 10:15 AM

I am a great fan of the character of Gimli in the book, and would very much like to join in this discussion. However, it will have to wait a bit, as I'm busy preparing for the Barrow-Downs birthday party and don't have the necessary time to research for an answer to your question, LMP. Rest assured - I'll be back!

mormegil · 04-30-2005, 10:45 AM

Well in consideration of Gimli independent of any other dwarf, yes he grew immensely in the LoTR as did all others who were a part of it, with the possible exception of Boromir and Denethor. That's what this kind of adventure/trial will do; it will either cause you to grow and develop or to fail. By far one of the greatest things Gimli did was help mend the rift between elves and dwarves that was apparent at the time. So, yes Gimli rose above what the conception is of most dwarves.

I do have a bit to say about Mim. I don't agree that Mim is a good character to base behavioral norms for dwarves on. Mim is a petty dwarf and from my understanding, petty dwarves are different than the great dwarven civilizations that we know and are discussing (i.e. Durin's folk)

eowyntje · 05-02-2005, 02:08 AM

I don't have a lot of knowledge of HoME and other writings mentioning the Dwarfs, but looking at the Lotr itself, I'd say it is very likely that Gimli was no ordinary dwarf, for the simple reason that all members o the fellowship were different from their own race in a way.
All 4 the hobbits were more adventurous then normal hobbits, Aragorn is nothing like normal humans, Boromir represents the humans weak side, but is nothing like the other humans describred in Lotr. Gandalf turns out to be no ordinary wizard, and as for legolas, he's quite normal in the beginning but changes when he befriends with a dwarf.
It is veyr likely that Tolkien made Gimli different form his race, more brave for example, because all the members of the fellowship are different from their race and they were the poeple he liked to write about. None of his characters were completely like the discription of their race, they all had their own traits and were unique creatures, and I think that goes for gimli too.

Lobelia · 05-02-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eowyntje

...looking at the Lotr itself, I'd say it is very likely that Gimli was no ordinary dwarf, for the simple reason that all members o the fellowship were different from their own race in a way.
All 4 the hobbits were more adventurous then normal hobbits, Aragorn is nothing like normal humans, Boromir represents the humans weak side, but is nothing like the other humans describred in Lotr. Gandalf turns out to be no ordinary wizard, and as for legolas, he's quite normal in the beginning but changes when he befriends with a dwarf.

Nice thought, very true - they were all different from other members of their races - mind you, I don't think there were any "ordinary" wizards! I think that any growth on Gimli's part is posible because he was, from the beginning, very unlike the dwarves in TH. Gloin at Rivendell had grown from the Gloin in TH. And more - the dwarves who sent Sauron's representative packing were very brave and not at all greedy for gold. I think of dwarves in general as brave and feisty like Gimli the orc-killer! I suspect the ones in the HOME books are more like the ones in Norse myth and not to be compared with our lovely Gimli.

drigel · 05-02-2005, 07:36 AM

I think the nature of the mission for the 9 walkers was such that it placed Gimli the dwarf in a most unusual position. Here at the onset, he was not just a representative of his kingdom, but a representative of his entire race. I see him at the beginning seeing himself as almost the appointed ambassador to the United Nations, and the stakes are such that if he fails, then all dwarves would fall one by one, along with the rest of the free peoples. A highly monumental task that didnt include finding and procuring gold / wealth for himself, his family, or his lord.

I also see the character developing with the authors view of dwarves all along LOTR, especially in the relationship with Legolas. The early works show a more raw approach to dwarves, but perhaps that is congruent. That was an earlier time in ME, where relationships with elves and men being rougher and the blood in those dwarvish veins running hotter. Its a nice way to tap into those earlier times by using the bonding of Gimli and Legolas to regain a trust that was lost millenia ago...

Nimrodel_9 · 05-02-2005, 04:45 PM

I've always liked to think that the hobbits' cheeriness kind of rubbed off on him.

04-30-2005, 10:15 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I am a great fan of the character of Gimli in the book, and would very much like to join in this discussion. However, it will have to wait a bit, as I'm busy preparing for the Barrow-Downs birthday party and don't have the necessary time to research for an answer to your question, LMP. Rest assured - I'll be back! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-30-2005, 10:45 AM	#3
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	Well in consideration of Gimli independent of any other dwarf, yes he grew immensely in the LoTR as did all others who were a part of it, with the possible exception of Boromir and Denethor. That's what this kind of adventure/trial will do; it will either cause you to grow and develop or to fail. By far one of the greatest things Gimli did was help mend the rift between elves and dwarves that was apparent at the time. So, yes Gimli rose above what the conception is of most dwarves. I do have a bit to say about Mim. I don't agree that Mim is a good character to base behavioral norms for dwarves on. Mim is a petty dwarf and from my understanding, petty dwarves are different than the great dwarven civilizations that we know and are discussing (i.e. Durin's folk) __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

05-02-2005, 02:08 AM	#4
eowyntje Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 47	I don't have a lot of knowledge of HoME and other writings mentioning the Dwarfs, but looking at the Lotr itself, I'd say it is very likely that Gimli was no ordinary dwarf, for the simple reason that all members o the fellowship were different from their own race in a way. All 4 the hobbits were more adventurous then normal hobbits, Aragorn is nothing like normal humans, Boromir represents the humans weak side, but is nothing like the other humans describred in Lotr. Gandalf turns out to be no ordinary wizard, and as for legolas, he's quite normal in the beginning but changes when he befriends with a dwarf. It is veyr likely that Tolkien made Gimli different form his race, more brave for example, because all the members of the fellowship are different from their race and they were the poeple he liked to write about. None of his characters were completely like the discription of their race, they all had their own traits and were unique creatures, and I think that goes for gimli too. __________________ No matter what they think or what they do, No matter what they feel Or what they see in you, You're gonna get there, Whatever they say, And nobody's going to stand, in the way

05-02-2005, 07:36 AM	#6
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	A most unusual mission I think the nature of the mission for the 9 walkers was such that it placed Gimli the dwarf in a most unusual position. Here at the onset, he was not just a representative of his kingdom, but a representative of his entire race. I see him at the beginning seeing himself as almost the appointed ambassador to the United Nations, and the stakes are such that if he fails, then all dwarves would fall one by one, along with the rest of the free peoples. A highly monumental task that didnt include finding and procuring gold / wealth for himself, his family, or his lord. I also see the character developing with the authors view of dwarves all along LOTR, especially in the relationship with Legolas. The early works show a more raw approach to dwarves, but perhaps that is congruent. That was an earlier time in ME, where relationships with elves and men being rougher and the blood in those dwarvish veins running hotter. Its a nice way to tap into those earlier times by using the bonding of Gimli and Legolas to regain a trust that was lost millenia ago...

05-02-2005, 04:45 PM	#7
Nimrodel_9 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Utah Posts: 734	I've always liked to think that the hobbits' cheeriness kind of rubbed off on him. __________________ .:A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart:.

04-30-2005, 09:35 AM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Fair enough, Bethberry. I await your stimulating erudition on this matter. That said, I hope that someone will please consider the questions I posed above, of Gimli's development within the story of LotR, which is certainly in keeping with the realism Bethberry speaks of?