Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[Anguirel]

Hell isn't really as inaccessible as all that in legend. It's getting out that is tricky, but the descent is child's play, through one of the traditional entrances (cf Avernus, The Birdless Place, in the Aeneid.) Virgil puts it best:

"The descent to Avernus is easy;
the gate of Pluto stands open night and day;
but to retrace one's steps and return to the upper air,
that is the toil, that is the difficulty."

(hic labor opus est.)

It seems to me that Tolkien's Hell visions are not at all unlike this. To pick a few examples, Beren and Luthien waltz cunningly, and relatively easily, into the depths of Angband. (Remniscent of Dionysus, who tricked his way into Hades, and the Sibyl, who calmed Cerberus just as Luthien struck down Carcharoth.) But when Angrist snaps and they're fleeing, all such cleverness and subterfuge is scattered to the winds, and they run automatically, only wishing to "see the light again." But for the Eagles, their escape would have been a failure. Being heroes, they get out, but by a hairsbreadth.

The light subject is raised again by the Great Goblin in the Hobbit. Thorin and co. have stumbled almost accidentally into "hell". The Great Goblin orders:

"Never let them see the light again!"

Again, only the divine power of Gandalf enables their escape, in a scene evocative of Christ's Harrowing of Hell.

In Moria, the Dwarves go in willingly, arrogantly, confidently. Their last entry in the Book of Mazarbul is:

"They are coming. We cannot get out."

And in the Paths of the Dead, the Grey Company find the skeleton of, if I recall rightly, Baldor, son of Brego-scratching in vain at the walls of the mountain. Trying and failing to escape, having wandered in so blithely.

Oh, of course the theology is a bit patchy. But the imagery, the poetic and mythic conventions, are all there. Literary hells abound in Middle-earth.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lush

Re-reading over this thread now, I am beginning to think that hell in Middle Earth is first and foremost separation from the divine.

I was just thinking...hell is supposedly a place of eternal suffering (caused by a separation from the divine, yes). Is this hell in ME eternal as well?

[HerenIstarion]

Is this hell in ME eternal as well

In two different ways, yes.

In time: Self-withdrawal from Eru, if unrepented of, seen in retrospective, is eternal. So, unless he repents, Sauron is always damned. If he repents, than the time previous to repentance may be seen as the ascend to the culmination point of the repentance and bliss, and therefore also eternal - once blessed, he would have been always blessed.

Outside time (Void): self-explanatory, I reckon - the 'place' is outside time, it is eternal.

The revert of the concept of Christ's descent into Hell - by this Act, He releases pre-Christian prophets - i.e. the Act goes both ways in time. Another point of view for the same Act - it is eternally performed, for God is not bound by time, and Christ is descending into hell to release every moment of the past-present-future consequence, which is consequence at all from human point of view only.

See this

[alatar]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

The revert of the concept of Christ's descent into Hell - by this Act, He releases pre-Christian prophets - i.e. the Act goes both ways in time. Another point of view for the same Act - it is eternally performed, for God is not bound by time, and Christ is descending into hell to release every moment of the past-present-future consequence, which is consequence at all from human point of view only.

Not to question anyone's theology or understanding of the same (and not to get too far afield), and obviously I'm no theologian, but in regards to the theme of this thread, did Jesus actually descend physically/spiritually into Hell as we seem to be defining it?

I can understand how by his sacrifice he freed those saints in Abraham's bosom/Hades/Hell, but not sure that he went there like when we speak of Frodo, Gandalf, Orpheus, etc.

I would cite Luke 23:43. And found this of interest but not definitive.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

Not to question anyone's theology or understanding of the same (and not to get too far afield), and obviously I'm no theologian, but in regards to the theme of this thread, did Jesus actually descend physically/spiritually into Hell as we seem to be defining it?

Originally Posted by alatar

I would cite Luke 23:43. And found this of interest but not definitive.

'And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."'- Luke 23:43, RSV

Just put the actual verse there for those who are too lazy (as I usually am) to go and look things up.

With regards to Jesus' physical descent into Hell, I'm not so sure that he did, at least as with regards to this question.

As I understand it, in the original Greek of the New Testament, Hades is used to represent the Hebrew "sheol", which simply means "place of the dead", and is not associated with either good or evil- not heaven or hell, but simply the place of the dead. In much the same way, Hades for the Greeks was the "place of the dead", and not hell.

So I don't know/remember if hell is used as a translation for lack of a word corresponding to "place of the dead", or if it originally meant that, as well as or instead of "place of eternal punishment".

As I understand, the original meaning of the passage is more that Jesus "having died, went to the place of the dead (sheol, Hades, hell), and by virtue of His death, the Gates of Heaven were opened and those in sheol were granted entrance into Heaven."

In this event, then Jesus did NOT descent into hell as we are defining it: a place of eternal punishment, to which Satan and all those who are evil are consigned. Although I might also add that Limbo, a place of nothingness which more-or-less compares with sheol/Hades as the neutral place of the dead, used to be an not-so-defined part of Christian theology as the seventh (and outermost) circle of Hell.

[Lush]

Well, first of all, you have to remember the fact that the idea of "hell" as a place where only bad people go evolved over time. As did the trips. When Odysseus went to Hades, it meant one thing. When Jesus went to get Abraham, it meant something different. But I would argue that this is all part of a greater pattern.

But then there is the Virgin Mary. She definitely took a stroll through Hell according to Orthodox theology. I think. Maybe. I was always a bad Orthodox anyway. Will look it up.

[Evisse the Blue]

Originally Posted by Lush

But then there is the Virgin Mary. She definitely took a stroll through Hell according to Orthodox theology. I think. Maybe. I was always a bad Orthodox anyway. Will look it up.

Yep, she was given a 'tour' not unlike Dante's, and she was very moved by the suffering, afterwards praying to God to put an end to their misery.
But this is Orthodox faith where there is no Purgatory, only two extremes: Heaven or Hell. And of course God can't forgive people just like that.

In time: Self-withdrawal from Eru, if unrepented of, seen in retrospective, is eternal. So, unless he repents, Sauron is always damned. If he repents, than the time previous to repentance may be seen as the ascend to the culmination point of the repentance and bliss, and therefore also eternal - once blessed, he would have been always blessed.

I know this is hypothetical and none of you think Sauron would ever repent. I'd take it one step further and say 'could not repent'. For some, hell is eternal because their choice of returning to good after a long period of evil would unbalance everything. It has become their fate to be evil. And also think of a place where there is no 'incarnate evil' to fight, like the 4th Age Middle Earth. In the unfinished sequel to LOTR, "A new shadow", Tolkien writes that people will create evil within themselves, even in times of prosperous peace. A sad pessimistic idea, that has no place in a fairytale; no wonder it was discarded.

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

As I understand it, in the original Greek of the New Testament, Hades is used to represent the Hebrew "sheol", which simply means "place of the dead", and is not associated with either good or evil- not heaven or hell, but simply the place of the dead. In much the same way, Hades for the Greeks was the "place of the dead", and not hell.

So I don't know/remember if hell is used as a translation for lack of a word corresponding to "place of the dead", or if it originally meant that, as well as or instead of "place of eternal punishment".

To me it would seem that the "place of the dead" is obviously the Halls of Mandos. Sure it's not a nice place to be, but it isn't Hell, however, where sinners are punished. All elves go there, regardless of actions in life.

There might be more to this, so I'll be looking through HoME for more. I think there's something about being reborn and all that from Mandos in Morgoth's Ring or some other book.

P.S. I'm surprised that I haven't heard Mandos come up at all yet in this conversation.

[Lúmen Rómello]

Some notes on the Orthodox Christian view of Hell and Hades:

First off, like has been already said, Christ didn't descend into Hell in the sense that we're using it here (the place of punishment for the Evil One, his angels, and unrepentant sinners), even though the Liturgy in English tends to use that term. He descended into Sheol/Hades, a place of waiting, where all the dead, righteous and unrighteous, waited for Him. While there, He raised all the righteous ones with Him (they ascended to Paradise after the Resurrection) and bound the Devil until the time when he would be released again (like is written in the Apocalypse), as well as removing the curse of eternal death from the world (like it says in the Paschal Hymn :"Christ is risen from the Dead, trampling down Death by death and upon those in the Tombs bestowing life!").

Also, the Theotokos didn't ever go into hell. There are pious traditions and tales (along the lines of the Inferno) saying that she did, but they're just that: pious traditions and tales, not dogma or doctrine.

Another thing: the Eastern Christian idea of Hell is rather different from the Western Christian conception of the same. While the West tends to view Hell as a seperation from God, the East does not. After all, the Scriptures do say (and I'm paraphrasing from the Psalms here) that "if I ascend to Heaven, Thou art there; if I descend into Hell, Thou art there." We say that God is "everywhere and fillest all things;" how can you run from omnipresence? The Orthodox view of Hell is rather startling to those who are accustomed to the Western view: Heaven and Hell are the same thing. It's the perception of that Reality that's different for each.

We believe that mankind's ultimate end is to stand in the presence of God and to be illumined by the Divine Light. Now, imagine if you will that you have spent your life in fervent service to Him, striving every day to come closer to Him and to be conformed more and more to His image, and that you love Him with all of your being. Such an experience would be pure bliss, would it not? Now, imagine that you've spent your life running from Him, and hating Him with every fibre of your being. Wouldn't be pure torment to be loved perfectly by One Who knows you perfectly for all of eternity?

Here's an analogy for you: there are a pair of twins, raised since infancy in a darkened mansion (nearly pitch-black), both wearing sunglasses. One, upon hearing of something called 'the sun', decides to learn about it and accustom himself to the light. He spends his time looking at various sources of light (lightbulbs, fires, etc.), reading about the sun, and occaisionally looking at it in a darkened mirror. As his eyes get accustomed to the light, he's able to stand greater and greater amounts of it for longer times. Now, the other twin, after hearing about the sun, carries on about his typical day-to-day business, never bothering to find out more about it or accustom his eyes to light. Eventually, there comes a day when both of them are taken out of the house and into the full sunlight, and made to look upon the sun in all his noonday brilliance. For the one who has accustomed himself to the light, he'll be able to behold the sun and observe all its brilliant mysteries. For the one who hasn't accustomed himself to the light, the sun will sear him and the experience will be pure torment.

Now, so far as Arda goes, it doesn't seem like there's any hell. The closest that it seems to come is the Halls of Mandos, and even those correspond most closely to Hades or Limbo rather than Hell. Perhaps the Professor had heard of the Orthodox view of Hell as the Presence of God. Maybe he hadn't. Who knows? Regardless, Arda seems to be missing anything that I would consider "Hell". Of course, there's only so far that Arda and Tellus can be compared, since they are distinct creations and the ties that bind them are tenuous at times.

I'll elaborate more later and answer any questions that arise from this. I've got to leave work now, though.

-LR