If they still had Gandalf... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elentari_Elbereth · 05-04-2005, 07:42 PM

This is such an interesting thought, and one I have thought of often.

I know the Fellowship would probably not have split up as it did, and all the other events trailing from it would never have happened.
If gandalf never came to Rohan, Theoden would still be under control of Saruman, and the whole country may have been conqured... And if Aragorn never went through the Paths of the Dead, surely Gondor would be destroyed, and not to mention no help from Rohan.

My thoughts are, if the Fellowship and Gandalf stayed together and proceeded to Mordor, would they have been able to destroy the Ring before Sauron could destroy Man?
Could they travel through Mordor quicker as 9? or would it be more difficult because they could be spotted easier?

Also, would Gandalf still have became White even without dying?

mormegil · 05-05-2005, 12:12 PM

In reading all of these posts on the speculation we seem to be missing one important factor, and that is does everything happen in the same time frame?

What I mean is this--If Gandalf lived (no balrog following) they wouldn't have stayed in Lothlorien nearly as long as they did (around a month...correct?). They would have stayed to get rest and supplies but wouldn't have needed the healing from the passing of Gandalf. Therefore they would have set out sooner on their quest and that alone can change the whole dynamic.

Would they have actually encountered the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin?
Would Aragorn have come in contact with the Palantir and pit his will against Sauron, thus having Sauron wage war sooner?
If Sauron hadn't rushed his hand Faramir wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor wouldn't have attempted to burn him alive and Gondor wouldn't have been under seige at that time.

It could be asked what would happen if the fellowship had left Lothlorien earlier and were successful in destroying the ring (regardless of who actually went into Mordor) then what? Sauruman isn't much to deal with in all honesty. So that's my addition currently. Thanks for the fun topic.

Essex · 05-08-2005, 02:50 AM

if Gandalf had not fallen, the 'World of Men' would have been pretty much obliterated.

I put it to you that Gandalf would have definately followed Frodo and Sam, and that the fellowship would have beaten the forces of orcs at Parth Galen.

Therefore:

No merry and pippin starting the Ent's movement towards the destruction of Isengard.

No healing of Theoden.

No mustering of Erkendrand's forces and the Huorns at Helm's Deep

Therefoer Total annihilation of Rohan people

Therefore no Ride of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields

Therefore no defeat of the Witch King by Eoywn / Merry

No trip by Aragorn to the Coast to get more troops

Therefore probable wipe out of Gondor's forces

No argument regarding the Witch King's demise between the two orc hunters who would have probably tracked the hobbits down.

Fight between the orcs and the hobbits (and Gandalf)

Now, tall order here, but the orcs possibly could have won this and got the Ring, and therefore END OF STORY.

But if the hobnits and gandalf did survive, then there wouldn't be much for Frodo, Sam and Gandalf to come back to.......if they could make it back through the lava pits once Mount Doom exploded after the Ring was thrown in. No Eagles around Mordor to give them a lift.......

alatar · 05-09-2005, 12:56 PM

Assume that all Nine of the Fellowship make it out of Moria and that they decide to go to Lothlorien. Also assume that all Nine decide to leave by boat as in the book. My first question, before we would deal with the events that (might) happen at Parth Galen would be:

How many boats, and who rides with whom?

Don't think that three boats would be adequate to take on the additional load of Gandalf. I think that four would be necessary.

Do Sam and Frodo still ride with Aragorn, or does Frodo and Sam pair up with Gandalf?

Aragorn and Boromir in one boat would be overkill, and we wouldn't want to stifle the budding relationship between Elf and Dwarf, and so I would propose that Aragorn would have Merry or Pippin and Boromir whichever one wasn't in Aragorn's boat.

Anyway, I'd have it as:

Boat 1 - F, S, G
Boat 2 - A, P
Boat 3 - B, M
Boat 4 - L, G

Would this affect how Boromir responds when Merry and Pippin are attacked at Parth Galen as he would then have 50% less exposure to the twain?

And would Aragorn, not required to be the leader, feel more disposed to going to Gondor and so buddy up a bit with Boromir?

As I have previously stated, one could do some mental gymnastics and work out a solution by which the events after Parth Galen all happen exactly as they do in the original story (in brief, have the Balrog accompany some Moria orcs and he and Gandalf take a dive over the Rauros falls).

My other questions regarding the surviving Gandalf would be, like mormegil, how long would the Fellowship stay in Lothlorien and also would Gandalf receive a gift?

Sorry for the unorderedness of the post.

P.S. Essex, haven't seen you in a while; glad you're back.

mormegil · 05-09-2005, 02:39 PM

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

alatar · 05-09-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf.

I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks.

I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply.

Would agree. One of the problems with 'if' scenarios is that at what point do you start a completely new story? I've continually in my own rewriting (mental) tried to 'get back' to the original storyline as much as possible.

Like if we couldn't brainstorm a way to get Theoden healed, then I could write, "Then Alatar and Pallando, on a trip back from the East, stop off at Meduseld and break Saruman's hold on Theoden, just to torque Curunir off. They then went back into the East..."

It's like cheating.

Essex · 05-10-2005, 03:49 AM

All this goes to show how TIGHT and well worked the plot of LOTR is.

Alter one little thing, and the story is irrevocably Changed. in some cases first hand, and in others like dominoes.

e.g.

first hand

Frodo leaves an hour later from Bag End. - captured by wraith - end of story

dominoes

Hobbit's don't fall asleep on the downs - no barrow wight - no sword for merry - no defeat of witch king - frodo and sam then captured by orc hunters - end of story

first hand

Nob not going to loo for Merry outside the Pony - Merry probably killed by ringwraiths (this also has further domino effects, of course)

dominoes

gandalf doesn't tell radagast to speak to birds and animals re news - no gwaihir to isengard - no escape - no battle between gandalf and ring wraiths on weathertop and drawing off of 4 ringwraiths - probable defeat of aragorn and frodo and Ring captured - end of story

PS Alatar - cheers, been spending what time I have online recently on the Gallifrey Online Doctor Who forums. Yes, even MORE 'nerdy' than Lord of the Rings!!!!

Gandalf_the _white · 10-16-2005, 04:03 AM

sorry if this is off topic but i always wondered wat would happen if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir? He wouldn't have been tempted by the ring and might of survived but then wat would Boromir have done back in Minas Tirith? Would he have protected Osgilliath like Faramir did?

Gothmog · 10-16-2005, 04:13 AM

Gandalf: This might interest you -->Was Boromir a mistake?

Gandalf_the _white · 10-16-2005, 04:35 AM

thnx that helps a bit

Glirdan · 10-16-2005, 08:12 AM

Yes it is off topic here but please, do join this disscussion. Nobody has posted here for a long time and it makes me sad because this topic is one that interests me greatly. There are so many things that have happened that you could change which would greatly change the outcome of the War of the Rings. Please, join in. I'd love to hear your thoughts on all this.

05-04-2005, 07:42 PM	#1
Elentari_Elbereth Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2005 Location: North Carolina (moving to Calif.) Posts: 24	This is such an interesting thought, and one I have thought of often. I know the Fellowship would probably not have split up as it did, and all the other events trailing from it would never have happened. If gandalf never came to Rohan, Theoden would still be under control of Saruman, and the whole country may have been conqured... And if Aragorn never went through the Paths of the Dead, surely Gondor would be destroyed, and not to mention no help from Rohan. My thoughts are, if the Fellowship and Gandalf stayed together and proceeded to Mordor, would they have been able to destroy the Ring before Sauron could destroy Man? Could they travel through Mordor quicker as 9? or would it be more difficult because they could be spotted easier? Also, would Gandalf still have became White even without dying? __________________ Who shall see a white ship leave the last shore, the pale phantoms in her cold bosom Like gulls wailing? ...Who shall see the last evening?

05-05-2005, 12:12 PM	#2
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	A new thought In reading all of these posts on the speculation we seem to be missing one important factor, and that is does everything happen in the same time frame? What I mean is this--If Gandalf lived (no balrog following) they wouldn't have stayed in Lothlorien nearly as long as they did (around a month...correct?). They would have stayed to get rest and supplies but wouldn't have needed the healing from the passing of Gandalf. Therefore they would have set out sooner on their quest and that alone can change the whole dynamic. Would they have actually encountered the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin? Would Aragorn have come in contact with the Palantir and pit his will against Sauron, thus having Sauron wage war sooner? If Sauron hadn't rushed his hand Faramir wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor wouldn't have attempted to burn him alive and Gondor wouldn't have been under seige at that time. It could be asked what would happen if the fellowship had left Lothlorien earlier and were successful in destroying the ring (regardless of who actually went into Mordor) then what? Sauruman isn't much to deal with in all honesty. So that's my addition currently. Thanks for the fun topic. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” Last edited by mormegil; 05-05-2005 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Addition for clarity

05-09-2005, 02:39 PM	#5
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	I think they would have only stayed in Lothlorien for a week or two at a maximum. They would just need to be refreshed and restocked on supplies but they wouldn't need to be healed from the hurt of loosing Gandalf. I do agree with you boat arraingement but I think that it would be fun to put Sam in with Boromir...just for kicks. I think though that many of our assumptions are based on the original timeline and in this case that wouldn't apply. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

10-16-2005, 04:13 AM	#9
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Gandalf: This might interest you -->Was Boromir a mistake? __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

10-16-2005, 08:12 AM	#11
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	Yes it is off topic here but please, do join this disscussion. Nobody has posted here for a long time and it makes me sad because this topic is one that interests me greatly. There are so many things that have happened that you could change which would greatly change the outcome of the War of the Rings. Please, join in. I'd love to hear your thoughts on all this. __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

05-08-2005, 02:50 AM	#3
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	if Gandalf had not fallen, the 'World of Men' would have been pretty much obliterated. I put it to you that Gandalf would have definately followed Frodo and Sam, and that the fellowship would have beaten the forces of orcs at Parth Galen. Therefore: No merry and pippin starting the Ent's movement towards the destruction of Isengard. No healing of Theoden. No mustering of Erkendrand's forces and the Huorns at Helm's Deep Therefoer Total annihilation of Rohan people Therefore no Ride of the Rohirrim at Pellenor Fields Therefore no defeat of the Witch King by Eoywn / Merry No trip by Aragorn to the Coast to get more troops Therefore probable wipe out of Gondor's forces No argument regarding the Witch King's demise between the two orc hunters who would have probably tracked the hobbits down. Fight between the orcs and the hobbits (and Gandalf) Now, tall order here, but the orcs possibly could have won this and got the Ring, and therefore END OF STORY. But if the hobnits and gandalf did survive, then there wouldn't be much for Frodo, Sam and Gandalf to come back to.......if they could make it back through the lava pits once Mount Doom exploded after the Ring was thrown in. No Eagles around Mordor to give them a lift.......

05-09-2005, 12:56 PM	#4
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Assume that all Nine of the Fellowship make it out of Moria and that they decide to go to Lothlorien. Also assume that all Nine decide to leave by boat as in the book. My first question, before we would deal with the events that (might) happen at Parth Galen would be: How many boats, and who rides with whom? Don't think that three boats would be adequate to take on the additional load of Gandalf. I think that four would be necessary. Do Sam and Frodo still ride with Aragorn, or does Frodo and Sam pair up with Gandalf? Aragorn and Boromir in one boat would be overkill, and we wouldn't want to stifle the budding relationship between Elf and Dwarf, and so I would propose that Aragorn would have Merry or Pippin and Boromir whichever one wasn't in Aragorn's boat. Anyway, I'd have it as: Boat 1 - F, S, G Boat 2 - A, P Boat 3 - B, M Boat 4 - L, G Would this affect how Boromir responds when Merry and Pippin are attacked at Parth Galen as he would then have 50% less exposure to the twain? And would Aragorn, not required to be the leader, feel more disposed to going to Gondor and so buddy up a bit with Boromir? As I have previously stated, one could do some mental gymnastics and work out a solution by which the events after Parth Galen all happen exactly as they do in the original story (in brief, have the Balrog accompany some Moria orcs and he and Gandalf take a dive over the Rauros falls). My other questions regarding the surviving Gandalf would be, like mormegil, how long would the Fellowship stay in Lothlorien and also would Gandalf receive a gift? Sorry for the unorderedness of the post. P.S. Essex, haven't seen you in a while; glad you're back.

05-10-2005, 03:49 AM	#7
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	All this goes to show how TIGHT and well worked the plot of LOTR is. Alter one little thing, and the story is irrevocably Changed. in some cases first hand, and in others like dominoes. e.g. first hand Frodo leaves an hour later from Bag End. - captured by wraith - end of story dominoes Hobbit's don't fall asleep on the downs - no barrow wight - no sword for merry - no defeat of witch king - frodo and sam then captured by orc hunters - end of story first hand Nob not going to loo for Merry outside the Pony - Merry probably killed by ringwraiths (this also has further domino effects, of course) dominoes gandalf doesn't tell radagast to speak to birds and animals re news - no gwaihir to isengard - no escape - no battle between gandalf and ring wraiths on weathertop and drawing off of 4 ringwraiths - probable defeat of aragorn and frodo and Ring captured - end of story PS Alatar - cheers, been spending what time I have online recently on the Gallifrey Online Doctor Who forums. Yes, even MORE 'nerdy' than Lord of the Rings!!!!

10-16-2005, 04:03 AM	#8
Gandalf_the _white Wight Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In crazy captions waving an angry fist at the outside world Posts: 155	sorry if this is off topic but i always wondered wat would happen if Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir? He wouldn't have been tempted by the ring and might of survived but then wat would Boromir have done back in Minas Tirith? Would he have protected Osgilliath like Faramir did?

10-16-2005, 04:35 AM	#10
Gandalf_the _white Wight Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In crazy captions waving an angry fist at the outside world Posts: 155	thnx that helps a bit