Tactical Discussion-Warg Charge

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Felagund

It would be a cake-walk for Glorfindel (who it is possible might have been the same Glorfindel who slew the Balrog at the fall of Gondolin? What's the concensus on that one?).

I don't know that there is a concensus on that point. It seems to be a fairly difficult debate. Not quite the question "do balrogs have wings" but it's up there.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell is indeed one and the same person; I don't have a quote at hand to give proof, but try using the search function for his name, and you should come up with some helpful previous discussions.

[WarBringer]

I cannot find a quote at the moment, but off the top of my head I believe Gandalf stated that NOT EVEN Glorfindel and Aragorn could withstand the Ringwraiths, which would be a testament to their power. Beyond that, it is simply known that Glorfindel was reincarnated and resided in Rivendell.

Another possible defense to a warg charge would simply be to gain higher ground, thereby lowering the effect of the added height given by a warg, and giving the defenders time to strike before the wargs could.

[Osse]

<NOTE: To avoid boredom, please skip to 'Section II'>


The only verified instance where Orcs/Goblins rode Wargs is during the Battle of Five Armies.

If you think about it, the Wargs were not really being used as chargers by their Goblin riders, but rather the Goblins are riding shotgun, as it were, to the Warg.

Here you have a huge, demonic wolf with an IQ far higher than the average Orc...

Who's controlling who?

I'd always imagined that the orc was really just clinging on for dear life as this gigantic beast ran around ripping the throats out of people underneath it - the orc just hacked and swung as best he could from his hairy vantage point. Tolkien explained, in the Hobbit, that the alliance between the Goblins and Wargs was only a tempory truce, that the races had had many a tiff, and they only joined together because it was convenient. He also mentions that the Warg was as likely to get stuck into his ally as his enemy.

As for how to counter a Warg charge: Spearmen.

A wolf's range is severly limited; it can only attack those foes within jaw-reach or within range of its forelegs. As for the rider, unless he is equipped with a spear himself, he has similarly limited range.

Someone above mentioned using pikemen or spearmen in a defensive line, much in the same way one would counter a regular calvary charge. This tactic would be highly effective against charging Wargs, with or without riders - as long as the line held, and didn't lose its nerve, and as long as the defenders had time to prepare it. However, even if there is no time to prepare a defensive line and the force being charged is already engaged, by far the best weapon for tackling Wargs is a medium-length, strong spear, with a broad head preferably. A spear keeps the defender out of range of the weapons of both Warg and rider, whilst putting them in a good position to pull the rider out of the saddle and thrust at the Warg's exposed flanks. Of course, the defenders would be less effective against regular infantry, or de-wolfed goblins, and would need to outnumber the Wargs quite considerably - otherwise, spear or not, the Wargs would tear the defenders apart.

Dwarves - Heavily armoured infantry would be rather too slow and cumbersome to be effective against the quick, agile and deadly Wargs, needing plenty of time to menouver. Also, the short-ranged axe would be quite hard to utilise against a fast moving Warg and would only be able to be used once the initial charge is over, and then only from the sides of the beast, where the jaws and forelimbs are less effective. Added to this, if a heavily armoured infantryman is knocked down by a Warg, he is far less capable of defending himself, and when on the ground is nearly useless, whereas a lightly armoured spearman would be able to still have good range of motion, being unencumbered by bulky arms and armour.

Felagund, it's my opinion that Dwarves would only be effective in large numbers, as a Warg can easily outpace and outmanouver a lone, fully-armoured, axe or mattock-wielding Dwarf, so the Dwarves would need to out-number their attackers.

Archers: Good for thinning out advancing groups of Wargs or wolfriders, but at close quarters are near-useless unless equipped with some other weaponry.


************************************************** ******
Section II
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(The race of the troop types mentioned matters little in my theories, as Elves and Men (if not Dwarves and Hobbits) can perform their roles quite well, they require discipline, but not particularly great skill, obviously Elves would probably mop the enemy up quicker... <cord pulled>)

An ideal (at least in my humble opinion) situation for repelling a wolf/Warg charge would be:

1. Gain possesion of higher ground, preferably a hill with a bottle-neck or choke point, so that your troops can be concentrated against the one direction of assault and avoid being flanked.

2. Position lightly armoured troops, armed with both spear and sword below crest or crown of hill, in a well formed line consisting of two or three ranks, those behind supporting their kneeling comrades. Position archers behind this defensive barrier, laying down volley after volley until charge is upon the defensive line. Ensure either archers are equipped with hand to hand weaponry, or have a group of heavy/medium infantry defending them.

3. Once the charge has hit the lines, keep troops fighting in small or medium sized groups so as their spears have most effect against the wolves and their riders (keep them aware of possible supporting enemy infantry coming on scene, or have back up infantry/archers support the spearmen)

4. Mop up surviving Goblins and Wargs, have archers fire at any retreating.

5. Cheer, blow horns, dance around, sing.

6. Get really, really drunk.




Regards,
Osse

[WarBringer]

Originally Posted by Osse

<
5. Cheer, blow horns, dance around, sing.
6. Get really, really drunk.

Sounds good to me

In all sincerity, I like the idea of a choke point, not only to prevent being flanked, but also to allow for one spearman to hold off many wargs, if the passage was narrow enough (i.e. axeman holding off Britons at Stamford Bridge, 1066)

[Glofin]

Before I begin I would like to make clear a few things about Calvary tactics. (And this comes from allot of Historical study on the matter from 500 BC to 1600 AD)

There are many different kinds of Calvary and their uses can differ greatly. Warg Riders strike me as a skirmishing Calvary force. And their function was not only to charge head long in the enemy.

Orcs did not use horses, therefore when it was possible, like in a well organized Orc army such as fought the battles around the Fords of the Isen they would give an Orc army an extra element of mobility. Which could be very useful against a normally very mobile enemy such as the Riders of Rohan.

Using them to attack the sides of Calvary unties and cut at the horses bellies or attack isolated groups of men, or wounded or routing soldiers seems to be what they were used for mostly. Also being a vanguard of a army, and making quick hit and run tactics to soften up the enemy before the main body of troops arrived.

Those are classic Skirmishing Calvary tactics. They are not heavily armed or equipped like the men of Rohan and therefore or not best suited for a headlong charge. This sort of thing was rarely done by light-Calvary. And it seems that the only time that it was done in Middle Earth was at the Battle of Five Armies where the Warg-Riders charged, as it seems in mass. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that) But there the Orcs so outnumbered everyone else that it didn’t really matter.

I don’t think I have ever heard of Warg-Riders and Calvary charging head long at each other. (Unlike in the movies) This is because the Warg-Riders would be on the losing end for sure. However big and fierce a Warg is, and the rider on top of it, I do not think it would match the weight of a say a Rider of Rohan in armour. The shear impact of heavy Calvary head would be enough to smash through nearly anything accept maybe a wall of spears. Also you would have to account that the Riders of Rohan would be armed with heavy spears,(a relatively long-range combat weapon as opposed to say a sword) which were the same as early lances. The only difference being that the shaft is more heavier than a normal fighting spear or else the shaft would break on contact. (And still did even with a lance)



Now to recap:

Skirmishing tactics are not full on attracts, but are raiding and hit and run tactics to cause some casualties, but mainly fear and disorganization. This in turn makes the moral of troops go down, so that say when the Uruks arrived their job would be that much easier.

Skirmishing tactics include activities such as these the Warg-Riders are mentioned to have done. (And thanks for Tour of Gondolin for posting them!)

“Saruman's eastern force came down with unexpected speed; it was much smaller than the western force, but more dangerous. In its van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders, feared by horses.”

Skirmishing calvary used surprise as one of their main weapons. They were fast and lightly armed so as to move quickly and quietly.

“The horsemen and wolfriders fell on the horse-herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them.”

Attacking weak points another tactic of Skirmishing Calvary. Other such targets would be supply lines, the wounded, and small groups of soldiers caught in the open.

“They were swift and skilled in avoiding ordered men in close array, being used mostly to destroy isolated groups or to hunt down fugitives; but at need they would pass with reckless ferocity through any gaps in companies of horsemen, slashing at the bellies of the horses. [Christopher Tolkien note]”

All these things are classic Skirmishing Calvary tactics. Btw I might add that the fact a target would be a horses belly might be a indication of the size of a Warg. I would imagine that only smaller Orcs (hence why Goblins seem to be the majority of Warg-Riders) would be light enough to ride on a Warg. And then they most likely wear little or no armour and carry a close combat slashing weapon perfect for quick hit and run fights. Used in these ways (as they were) Warg-Riders would indeed be feared.

Now how to combat these?

Things such as traps on a battlefield would be largely useless I would think. Warg-Riders are scent in mainly when the enemy does not know they are coming. They were also used as scouts so they would most likely know of any traps set for them. But for the most part they would prefer to attack out of the blue. That is why they are effective.

Archers would only work if they were protected by closely packed spearmen. But then they would be very affective against Warg-Riders. Archers without this kind of protection would be I would think an easy target if the Warg-Riders moved quickly or took them by surprise. Though the terrine could change the situation.

I should also add that riding down archers was something that Skirmishing and Light Calvary did, where have a Knight of instance would not. His job would be to smash head long into the enemy lines and ride over everything in his path.


Also never underestimate heavily armoured dwarves axe men. In the Wars of the Irish against the English the Axe was a feared weapon of the Irish, (and of the Norse from whom they borrowed it)

A Gallowglass was a Irish elite warrior who fought only on foot, and uses weapon was ether a two handed axe (not two headed!), or a two handed sword which was used in later times. They always wore helmets and full coats of mail over padded clothing.

It was they who were able to Norman (English) Knights in a full charge. This they would do by downing the Horse with the axe, and then going after the rider. I imagine the result between a warg-rider and dwarf would be much the same.


So what is the best method of stopping Warg-Riders? Keep your troops organized! Give them no weak points to attack, and hopefully force them into something costly like attacking your main line where you would have your spear men, and heaviest armoured troops in the front, and archers behind to weaken the enemy before they hit.

Also I might add, though Tolkien does not mention much in the way of tactics, we should not assume therefore that there were none. Battle tactics ALWAYS evolve. Where there is constant war such as in middle earth, if something works, you do it again, if it works again, you start to refine it until you have an effective tactic for that situation.

Glofin

[Felagund]

I have found Tolkien's mention of tactics in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, in the Unfinished Tales. He refers to two Numenorean spear formations (can't quite recall the names right now, too lazy to look them up...). So I guess we must assume tactics were used in Middle-Earth eventually.