Saruman's economic infrastructure unexplained?

[mormegil]

I just can't see that this would be a viable way of sustaning a truly large population. What do others think? If cannibalization was the method would they kill those they would eat or would they wait for them to die either in battle or of age? My guess is that they would just kill those who were weaker.

[Kuruharan]

The population of Moria during normal times was not that great.

[the orcs in Moria] were in fact not very numerous

-UT footnote 11 The Hunt for the Ring

Moria seems to have been garrisoned rather than settled. The Balrog may not have wanted too many cohabitants.

Also remember that in Middle earth, the hunting is not entirely above ground. "Things" lived underground too, and I doubt that the orcs would refuse to eat them.

EDIT: Also remember the remarks of Gorbag and Shagrat about "Going to the Pot" are rather suggestive.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I just can't see that this would be a viable way of sustaning a truly large population. What do others think? If cannibalization was the method would they kill those they would eat or would they wait for them to die either in battle or of age? My guess is that they would just kill those who were weaker.

Can't see cannibalization as a really good way to sustain or especially build a population. Where is all of the soylent green as it were coming from? It almost sounds like a perpetual motion machine.

Assume that you have 100 full grown fully fed orcs in a cage. How long would they be able to go before the net number of orcs were reduced to where they would be useless as an army? Just sitting around burns calories. One orc would supply X calories, and so assume that one goes into the pot.

So now 99 less than well fed orcs are sitting around on day 2 (or whatever). They're hungry again, as that one orc was just enough. More orcs would need to go into the pot as each orc, being less than well fed, would provide less total calories. Maybe by day 5 it takes 2 orcs to provide X.

Anyway, you need some caloric input into the system.

[Kuruharan]

Evil oft causes its own demise.

(This topic has gotten rather sick and disturbed.)

[eowyntje]

a debate on how orcs eat eachother, interesting

cannibalism would not have been good for survival, a race can't produce as many calaries by breeding, as it eats.
Also I doubt that hunting inside moria was smart, there weren't that many animals there, considering the fellowship didn't meet any after an entire day in moria, and if there were any creatures, hunting them was probably dangerous.

[Kuruharan]

if there were any creatures, hunting them was probably dangerous.

Truth be told, that could be said about hunting a lot of things. I'm not sure the orcs would have been put off by that.

The orcs in Moria specifically were probably supplied by Dol Guldur and likely did not rely on eating each other too much, at least not for survival.

I think that for the rest of the orcs in the Misty Mountains cannibalism may have been a more substantial part of the diet.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think that for the rest of the orcs in the Misty Mountains cannibalism may have been a more substantial part of the diet.

But hardly the only part. We know from The Hobbit that the Great Goblin often took a fancy to fish, and that they regularly ventured forth from the mountains to raid and pillage the Woodmen's villages.

And on the other side of the Misty Mountains, we know that the the Rangers were quite often dealing with ork raids and such, although probably not in numbers like on the eastern side.

Also, as the population of the orks in the Wilderland (esp. the Misty Mountains) regrew after the Battle of the Five Armies, the incidents of conflict between them and the "good" locals (eg. the Beornings) intensified. This most likely had to do, in large part, with the intensifying of Sauron's war, but I imagine that it served the ulterior motive of feeding the orks.

And we know for a fact, that the orks would eat human flest and horse flesh without a qualm, in addition to more normal things like sheep and fish. So those raiders might not have been after just sheep and such.

[Gil-Galad]

Don't forget, the Balrog is kind of different from the movie then the book, the book says the Balrog gathered the orcs and trolls to him to drive out the dwarves, while the movie it looks like the orcs fear it competely, they probaly do in the book, but not as much.

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Truth be told, that could be said about hunting a lot of things. I'm not sure the orcs would have been put off by that.

yes, but the result would be that some orcs died, which would not be veyr positive for the orc-poppulation in Moria.


I think it is veyr likely that the orcs outside Moria fed on whatever the found, from animals to traveling humans, and attacked villages nearby if they needed extra food.
But the orcs in Moria were not visited by traveler or many animals so often so they might have had some other source. (as Alatar explained so wll, feeding on cannibalism alone is biologically impossible) Perhaps orcs from the surrounding area borught them food, or they ventured outside to hunt.

[Kuruharan]

yes, but the result would be that some orcs died, which would not be veyr positive for the orc-poppulation in Moria.

There always seemed to be more where they came from...