Saruman's economic infrastructure unexplained?

[eowyntje]

a debate on how orcs eat eachother, interesting

cannibalism would not have been good for survival, a race can't produce as many calaries by breeding, as it eats.
Also I doubt that hunting inside moria was smart, there weren't that many animals there, considering the fellowship didn't meet any after an entire day in moria, and if there were any creatures, hunting them was probably dangerous.

[Kuruharan]

if there were any creatures, hunting them was probably dangerous.

Truth be told, that could be said about hunting a lot of things. I'm not sure the orcs would have been put off by that.

The orcs in Moria specifically were probably supplied by Dol Guldur and likely did not rely on eating each other too much, at least not for survival.

I think that for the rest of the orcs in the Misty Mountains cannibalism may have been a more substantial part of the diet.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think that for the rest of the orcs in the Misty Mountains cannibalism may have been a more substantial part of the diet.

But hardly the only part. We know from The Hobbit that the Great Goblin often took a fancy to fish, and that they regularly ventured forth from the mountains to raid and pillage the Woodmen's villages.

And on the other side of the Misty Mountains, we know that the the Rangers were quite often dealing with ork raids and such, although probably not in numbers like on the eastern side.

Also, as the population of the orks in the Wilderland (esp. the Misty Mountains) regrew after the Battle of the Five Armies, the incidents of conflict between them and the "good" locals (eg. the Beornings) intensified. This most likely had to do, in large part, with the intensifying of Sauron's war, but I imagine that it served the ulterior motive of feeding the orks.

And we know for a fact, that the orks would eat human flest and horse flesh without a qualm, in addition to more normal things like sheep and fish. So those raiders might not have been after just sheep and such.

[Gil-Galad]

Don't forget, the Balrog is kind of different from the movie then the book, the book says the Balrog gathered the orcs and trolls to him to drive out the dwarves, while the movie it looks like the orcs fear it competely, they probaly do in the book, but not as much.

[Kuruharan]

But hardly the only part.

Agreed.

I think, though, the picture that emerges of the Misty Mountain orcs is that they were less well fed than those from Mordor, for example. In The Hobbit they are referred to as being always hungry which I think it is safe to say indicates that vittles were chronically short. This being so, I think it likely that if things were particularly lean they would bop a few unpopular orcs on the noggin and put meat back on the menu. (I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

In Mordor, even a low ranking orc was referred to as well fed or at least in comparison with Sam. Although, considering how much Sam had to eat perhaps even a mountain orc would look well fed in comparison.

while the movie it looks like the orcs fear it competely, they probaly do in the book, but not as much.

Huh? If you mean in the books the orcs are portrayed as being rational creatures who were to some extent obedient to the Balrog and not a horde of irrational but heavily armed cockroaches then I'd agree completely.

However, this does not mean that the numbers of orcs in Moria were that great. The army that destroyed Balin's dwarves could have been drawn back to Dol Guldur in the intervening time (where the food was probably better).

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Truth be told, that could be said about hunting a lot of things. I'm not sure the orcs would have been put off by that.

yes, but the result would be that some orcs died, which would not be veyr positive for the orc-poppulation in Moria.


I think it is veyr likely that the orcs outside Moria fed on whatever the found, from animals to traveling humans, and attacked villages nearby if they needed extra food.
But the orcs in Moria were not visited by traveler or many animals so often so they might have had some other source. (as Alatar explained so wll, feeding on cannibalism alone is biologically impossible) Perhaps orcs from the surrounding area borught them food, or they ventured outside to hunt.

[Kuruharan]

yes, but the result would be that some orcs died, which would not be veyr positive for the orc-poppulation in Moria.

There always seemed to be more where they came from...

[cookieman]

Hello, I'm new here, but if I may chime in, let's keep in mind that Saruman was amazingly cunning. He was a wizard, and he was smart enough to be the HEAD of the White Council. Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel,( keepers of the great rings) even with their reservations made him the head. You have all made some wonderful points. Saruman would be smart enough to use all of your ideas in combination. It is not only plausable, but Likely, that through his cunning he would be able to supply his army.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that Saruman's economic infrastructure is based on the production, which Isengart naturally have. I think, that Isengart itself must have a nearly autarc system or the possibility of being nearly autarc.
In the time before the coming of the Rohirrim, Isengart was an outpost in the nearly deserted fields of Calenardhon. The people living in Isengart must have fed themselven alone (I suppose).
That would mean, that there was an existing infrastructure on which Saruman could build his own economic infrastructure.
We know from Saruman, that he is a cunning head and we know also, that Saruman have some economic skills, because of the story with the tobacco and the Shire.
So, it is likely, that he did some trade not only with the pipeweed in the Shire, but also in other things. He had the mountains and the Dunlendings directly in front of his home. Consequently there was a potential of trade there.
We know also, that Saruman had many activities in the region of Dunlendings. Dunlendings were in his army and they succumb to the propaganda of Saruman (thinking that the Rohirrim are very cruel to his prisoners of war). I think, that such a propaganda needs some time and trust on the side of the Dunlendings towards Saruman. This time and this trust could Saruman had gained through economic things.

Which I can't explain with this theory is, how Saruman could feed thousands of orcs. But I find the Dol Guldor theory very good. ;-)

[Gil-Galad]

Hmmm...with the Dol Guldur theory, perhaps Sauron sent some of his food stuffs to Saruman? through the black gate to Dol Guldur, then across the river and trhough Rohan