LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 10 - The Choices of Master Samwise

[davem]

Another post full of quotes I’m afraid...

Two incidents struck me, one in this chapter, one in the last. Both have to do with the Phial & its effect on those who wield it:

'Galadriel!" he said faintly, and then he heard voices far off but clear: the crying of the Elves as they walked under the stars in the beloved shadows of the Shire, and the music of the Elves as it came through his sleep in the Hall of Fire in the house of Elrond. Gilthoniel A Elbereth!
And then his tongue was loosed and his voice cried in a language which he did not know:
A Elbereth Gilthoniel
o menel palan-diriel,
le nallon si di'nguruthos!
A tiro nin, Fanuilos!*
And with that he staggered to his feet and was Samwise the hobbit, Hamfast's son, again.

*O Elbereth Star-Kindler gazing afar to thee I cry here beneath-death-horror. look towards (watch over) me, Fanuilos!

Tolkien comments on Elbereth in The Road Goes Ever On:

As a "divine" or "angelic" person Varda/Elbereth could be said to be "looking afar from heaven" (as in Sam's invocation); hence the use of a present participle.'" She was often thought of, or depicted, as standing on a great height looking towards Middle-earth, with eyes that penetrated the shadows, and listening to the cries for aid of Elves (and Men) in peril or grief. Frodo (V ol. I, p. 208) and Sam both invoke her in moments of extreme peril. The Elves sing hymns to her. (These and other references to religion in The Lord of the Rings are frequently overlooked. ) .

The other I’ve mentioned in our discussion of the last chapter:

Frodo gazed in wonder at this marvellous gift that he had so long carried, not guessing its full worth and potency. Seldom had he remembered it on the road, until they came to Morgul Vale, and never had he used it for fear of its revealing light. Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima! he cried, and knew not what he had spoken; for it seemed that another voice spoke through his, clear, untroubled by the foul air of the pit.
But other potencies there are in Middle-earth, powers of night, and they are old and strong. And She that walked in the darkness had heard the Elves cry that cry far back in the deeps of time, and she had not heeded it, and it did not daunt her now.

Both Frodo & Sam spontaneously utter Elvish invocations - of Earendel & of Elbereth respectively - & neither of them know what they have spoken. So where do the words come from? Are they placed in the Hobbits’ mouth’s by Galadriel herself? It seems that in a way She is present with them in the cave & the pass & it is her power that stands against Shelob. The point is, these are specifically Elvish invocations, probably traditional ones (certainly the one Frodo utters is traditional), & the language is what we would expect Galadriel to speak. TRGEO again:

The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves (of which kind were most of the Elves in Rivendell), marked in high style and verse by influence of Quenya, which had been originally their normal tongue.

Sanwe or not, this seems to be more than simple ‘thought transmission’ - both Frodo & Sam seem almost ‘taken over’ by a power &/or consciousness strong enough to daunt Shelob. They have asked for help & got it, but I can’t help wondering about the implications of these events. It seems the ‘good’ side are as willing as the evil side to dominate minds & wills...

(Deliberately being a bit provocative there, but you see where I’m going, I hope....)

[bilbo_baggins]

Hmmm. I think I do see where you are going with that.

A friend once told me that the reason Frodo and Sam both called on Elvish incantations was because the ones that they used were ones that struck into the heart of goodness, ad infinitum de nauseam. (to infinity of nausea) The person didn't understand the Elvish...

I think that it is some good force working here, at the very least opening words and ideas to the Hobbits, if not actually using their minds. Is it Galadriel? I can't even begin to assume here, so all I know is that the Good forces - whoever they may be - allowed power, true power, that was backed with forces greater than the enshrouding darkness, was brought into play by the humble halflings.

Why?

bilbo_baggins

[davem]

Thinking more about this I wonder if Tolkien is referring to 'speaking in tongues' - specifically xenoglossia (as opposed to Glosssolalia:

Xenoglossia: (a.k.a. Zenolalia, Xenoglossia) This is the ability to spontaneously speak a foreign language without first having learned it, or even been exposed to it. This term is also derived from two Greek words: Xenos, which means "foreign" or "foreigner", and glõssai, which means "tongues" or "languages." An event in which an individual who knows only English, has never been exposed to any other language, and who suddenly starts to speak in fluent Swahili would be an example of Xenoglossia. Stories of xenoglossia are well known, particularly within the Pentecostal movement and psychic research. E. D. O'Connor describes some cases. Another source claims that "no scientifically attested case of zenolalia has come to light." 6 Still another writer states that essentially all claims of xenoglossia are hoaxes. 7He claims that only one credible case has ever surfaced: that of a "Jewish woman who slipped into another personality" during hypnosis who was able to speak in Swedish.

(See this site:http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues1.htm for a distinction between the two.)

[Kuruharan]

...but taking a page from the "It was the Ring that spoke to Gollum" book, could this be the Phial speaking?

It seems the ‘good’ side are as willing as the evil side to dominate minds & wills...

If this is the case (and lets assume for the sake of this particular talking point it is) there is still a difference. Evil will dominate against the will of those it dominates. Frodo and Sam invoke the good before strange things start happening.

[davem]

But is the motivation of who/whatever is speaking/acting through Frodo & Sam to save them from Shelob or is it to increase the chances of the Quest succeeding & the Ring being destroyed? Are their conscious minds/wills (temporarily) overthrown in order to save their lives or in order to help the Quest? The former could be seen as acceptable, even though the Hobbits don't consent to this loss of control - it just happens to them. The latter seems more suspect, as the Hobbits would be being treated as little more than pawns, as a means to an end....

[Kuruharan]

Just to set a tone for my response allow me to say that I disagree with the assessment that desiring the completion of the quest is somehow seedier than saving their lives. Also, I think that it is possible (even vitally necessary) to desire both at once. I hope this preface serves to clarify my response. I hope I will be able to explain myself adequately below.

First, I trust we can agree that the Power of Good places value on the lives of Frodo and Sam because the Power of Good values life as being inherently valuable.

That being said, I’m going to say something that may sound a trifle harsh. Frodo and Sam were the chosen tools to complete a task that is also inherently valuable to the Power of Good. Frodo was chosen to bear the Ring and I think it is safe to say that Sam was chosen to accompany and assist him. This task involving the freedom of the living beings in the world and involving who was going to be given the divine honor entangles the fate of myriads more beings than Frodo and Sam. Their status as “pawns” actually armors them with more value to the Power of Good because they are the way to achieving an aim that is also inherently good.

even though the Hobbits don't consent to this loss of control - it just happens to them.

I’m not so sure about this either. I think their use of the Phial does imply some degree of consent in what happened. What they said may have been an expression of their own will, only in a form “focused” through their use of the Phial into a more powerful form.

Also notice the difference here between Sauron and Gandalf (and ultimately Eru). Sauron sends the Nazgul to find the Ring, beings he tricked and has utterly enslaved to his will. Gandalf, on the other hand, persuades Frodo to go and Sam goes for love of Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of his own will where the Nazgul fulfill their task without regard to whatever will they may or may not have had in the matter.

That Fordo earnestly attempted to get as far as he had (up to that point) I think is a powerful aid to consent when the Power of Good desired to intervene to both save their lives and ensure the continuation of the Quest.

Also notice the, well, almost providential manner in which this whole business falls out. Frodo and Sam were trapped between two large parties of orcs in unfamiliar territory with little potential for cover. They had One Ring to split between them. Chances are, had Frodo escaped Shelob unscathed, one or the other of them would have been spotted (whichever didn’t have the Ring obviously) and the Quest would have been in deep doo-doo. Instead, Frodo is poisoned and taken prisoner and Sam escapes through use of the Ring. However, Frodo is taken in the direction he was intending to go, into Mordor. Through the loot the orcs find on his body, the garrison of Cirith Ungol is destroyed, which would have been a terribly difficult obstacle for Frodo and Sam to get past had things gone otherwise.

Frodo and Sam may have gotten through Cirith Ungol and into Mordor in the only manner possible.