LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 10 - The Choices of Master Samwise

[davem]

Thinking more about this I wonder if Tolkien is referring to 'speaking in tongues' - specifically xenoglossia (as opposed to Glosssolalia:

Xenoglossia: (a.k.a. Zenolalia, Xenoglossia) This is the ability to spontaneously speak a foreign language without first having learned it, or even been exposed to it. This term is also derived from two Greek words: Xenos, which means "foreign" or "foreigner", and glõssai, which means "tongues" or "languages." An event in which an individual who knows only English, has never been exposed to any other language, and who suddenly starts to speak in fluent Swahili would be an example of Xenoglossia. Stories of xenoglossia are well known, particularly within the Pentecostal movement and psychic research. E. D. O'Connor describes some cases. Another source claims that "no scientifically attested case of zenolalia has come to light." 6 Still another writer states that essentially all claims of xenoglossia are hoaxes. 7He claims that only one credible case has ever surfaced: that of a "Jewish woman who slipped into another personality" during hypnosis who was able to speak in Swedish.

(See this site:http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues1.htm for a distinction between the two.)

[Kuruharan]

...but taking a page from the "It was the Ring that spoke to Gollum" book, could this be the Phial speaking?

It seems the ‘good’ side are as willing as the evil side to dominate minds & wills...

If this is the case (and lets assume for the sake of this particular talking point it is) there is still a difference. Evil will dominate against the will of those it dominates. Frodo and Sam invoke the good before strange things start happening.

[davem]

But is the motivation of who/whatever is speaking/acting through Frodo & Sam to save them from Shelob or is it to increase the chances of the Quest succeeding & the Ring being destroyed? Are their conscious minds/wills (temporarily) overthrown in order to save their lives or in order to help the Quest? The former could be seen as acceptable, even though the Hobbits don't consent to this loss of control - it just happens to them. The latter seems more suspect, as the Hobbits would be being treated as little more than pawns, as a means to an end....

[Kuruharan]

Just to set a tone for my response allow me to say that I disagree with the assessment that desiring the completion of the quest is somehow seedier than saving their lives. Also, I think that it is possible (even vitally necessary) to desire both at once. I hope this preface serves to clarify my response. I hope I will be able to explain myself adequately below.

First, I trust we can agree that the Power of Good places value on the lives of Frodo and Sam because the Power of Good values life as being inherently valuable.

That being said, I’m going to say something that may sound a trifle harsh. Frodo and Sam were the chosen tools to complete a task that is also inherently valuable to the Power of Good. Frodo was chosen to bear the Ring and I think it is safe to say that Sam was chosen to accompany and assist him. This task involving the freedom of the living beings in the world and involving who was going to be given the divine honor entangles the fate of myriads more beings than Frodo and Sam. Their status as “pawns” actually armors them with more value to the Power of Good because they are the way to achieving an aim that is also inherently good.

even though the Hobbits don't consent to this loss of control - it just happens to them.

I’m not so sure about this either. I think their use of the Phial does imply some degree of consent in what happened. What they said may have been an expression of their own will, only in a form “focused” through their use of the Phial into a more powerful form.

Also notice the difference here between Sauron and Gandalf (and ultimately Eru). Sauron sends the Nazgul to find the Ring, beings he tricked and has utterly enslaved to his will. Gandalf, on the other hand, persuades Frodo to go and Sam goes for love of Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of his own will where the Nazgul fulfill their task without regard to whatever will they may or may not have had in the matter.

That Fordo earnestly attempted to get as far as he had (up to that point) I think is a powerful aid to consent when the Power of Good desired to intervene to both save their lives and ensure the continuation of the Quest.

Also notice the, well, almost providential manner in which this whole business falls out. Frodo and Sam were trapped between two large parties of orcs in unfamiliar territory with little potential for cover. They had One Ring to split between them. Chances are, had Frodo escaped Shelob unscathed, one or the other of them would have been spotted (whichever didn’t have the Ring obviously) and the Quest would have been in deep doo-doo. Instead, Frodo is poisoned and taken prisoner and Sam escapes through use of the Ring. However, Frodo is taken in the direction he was intending to go, into Mordor. Through the loot the orcs find on his body, the garrison of Cirith Ungol is destroyed, which would have been a terribly difficult obstacle for Frodo and Sam to get past had things gone otherwise.

Frodo and Sam may have gotten through Cirith Ungol and into Mordor in the only manner possible.