Feanor's Wrath

[WarBringer]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

So you're saying, getting that nasty ol' Thingol out of the way would have been a blessing?

I must say, WarBringer, I'm extremely glad you weren't in command of the host of exiled Noldor! It would have been a black day for the poor old Sindar when you touched Middle-earth sand...
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Anguirel, if you can point out where I said "getting that nasty ol' Thingol out of the way would have been a blessing?", I will give you everything in my bank account. Understand that conflict does not mean utter defeat, or even necessarily physical conflict, or else the Noldor would have been defeated on the outset. I simply meant, quite rationally in my opinion, that It would be difficult for two elves of such might to coexist on Middle Earth. In a SEPARATE point, I do believe Feanor could have united the Noldor. Fingolfin was a strong ruler but himself diverted to Feanor while he lived, and yet Fingolfin is accounted among the great High Kings. Imagine Feanor as High King, of whom Fingolfin was but a sub ruler. Feanor, with his strength of will and cunning, would have united the Noldor before long, and would have contested Morgoth in Middle Earth.

In the future, I would ask that no one make rash inferences or jump to conclusion. Conflict does not mean "getting some one out of the way". Also notice that I never used the term "war", I said "fought". Not necessarily physically, in other words.

[Anguirel]

Sorry if I put words into your mouth, War Bringer...

However, I really don't see how you envisage Feanor and Fingolfin's reconciliation happening. Fingolfin has been led by Feanor into attacking the Teleri. He is the under the Doom of Mandos, due to Feanor. He does not even get a chance to sail on one of the captured ships, due to Feanor. Due to Feanor, he has to cross the Helcaraxe, where many, many of his host-including Turgon's wife, his innocent daughter-in-law, Elenwe-have lost their footing and been drowned.

"Small love" indeed he hath for Feanor. In fact, that's something of an understatement.

Feanor kindled the Noldor to war; but in peaceful ways was not so persuasive. The Teleri could not be urged by him to ferry his host, for example. In any case, Feanor was always bitter about the children of Indis, and may not have wanted to lower himself to negotiations. In other words, on Fingolfin's side those wanting revenge outnumber those wanting peace; on Feanor's side the host is gripped by its lord's fey defiance of any enemy.

This is potentially a terrible war-the Noldor could wipe each other out. Thingol would very likely help Fingolfin. In other words, Feanor is not a universally admired or accepted figure as Fingolfin becomes after Maedhros' abdication. Far from being conjoined, it would take a miracle to stop the hosts coming to blows.

[Saurreg]

Whether or not Fingolfin would actually attack Feanor is debatable. "To meet someone again" in this context does hold a notion to confront in arms. So when we read that Caesar desired to cross the Adratic as soon as possible to meet Pompey in Asia, it is logical to infer that the former wanted to engage the latter in pitched battle.

But given what we know of Fingolfin's nature and the way Tolkien depicts his "positive" characters, Fingolfin might be simply filled with a desire to accomplish the feat of travelling to Middle Earth even without ships nor Feanor himself. This can be interpreted as him facing an insurmountable challenge and rising to face it.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

Whether or not Fingolfin would actually attack Feanor is debatable. "To meet someone again" in this context does hold a notion to confront in arms. So when we read that Caesar desired to cross the Adratic as soon as possible to meet Pompey in Asia, it is logical to infer that the former wanted to engage the latter in pitched battle.

But given what we know of Fingolfin's nature and the way Tolkien depicts his "positive" characters, Fingolfin might be simply filled with a desire to accomplish the feat of travelling to Middle Earth even without ships nor Feanor himself. This can be interpreted as him facing an insurmountable challenge and rising to face it.

True, I agree that Fingolfin would not attack Feanor. But, I also don't see them being on the best of terms. What seems more likely is that their meeting would be less than gracious and further strain the uneasy relationship between them. At any rate, it doesn't make Feanor a likely candidate to unify the Noldor.

[WarBringer]

Fingolfin readily allowed himself to be led by Feanor. I do not have the exact quote in front of me, but I believe he said something along the lines of "let no new grief divide, henceforth you lead and I will follow."

Not only that, I believe that many of you do not have a proper grasp of Feanor's personaility. Even those who dislike him (i.e. Galadriel) will follow him. He has power, both verbally and physically, and can inspire the best of the elves to rebel against the very gods. If that doesn't prove that he can unite the Noldor, then nothing will convince you.

[mormegil]

He has power, both verbally and physically, and can inspire the best of the elves to rebel against the very gods. If that doesn't prove that he can unite the Noldor, then nothing will convince you.

But he did not convince all of the Noldor to follow him. Doubt among them had risen rapidly through their journey about Fëanor. They only didn't turn back because of their pride. After crossing the grinding ice I think that many would never accept Fëanor again. It was only through Fingon rescuing Meadros that they were united. What act would have been performed to attone for Fëanor. It would need to have been Fëanor instigating the act and I don't feel that he would.

Galadriel followed the Noldor but not Fëanor per se. She wanted to leave Valinor and saw her opportunity with Fëanor.

the best of the elves

Not in an attempt to argue semantics but the best how? The Vanyar were great in their own right and the Teleri in theirs. I don't know if it is correct to classify the Noldor as the best in using such a blanket statement.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by WarBringer

Fingolfin readily allowed himself to be led by Feanor. I do not have the exact quote in front of me, but I believe he said something along the lines of "let no new grief divide, henceforth you lead and I will follow."

Not only that, I believe that many of you do not have a proper grasp of Feanor's personaility. Even those who dislike him (i.e. Galadriel) will follow him. He has power, both verbally and physically, and can inspire the best of the elves to rebel against the very gods. If that doesn't prove that he can unite the Noldor, then nothing will convince you.

Even if that quote holds true, it was spoken before the burning of the teleri ships that led to great suffering amongst Fingolfin's host. Whether or not Fingolfin would continue to hold such fidelity to his step brother if he encountered the latter on Middle Earth would be debatable. He might not attack Feanor, but fingolfin might not want his flock to be entrusted under the care of someone who had "betrayed" them before.

Feanor was the quintessential demagogue of Tolkien's literature. He must have been extremely charismatic for even those that fear him to be so enticed by his words that the follow.

But how well a demagogue and hold on to power depends on the among of goodwill and popular support he has left. Disappoint the people too many times and even the sweetest words won't buy you their favour.