Death portrayal

[Eruanna]

I think that the Rohirrim, being warriors, looked upon death as an 'occupational hazard' and that it was right and noble to make a 'good death'. Being the recipients of Eru's Gift meant that they believed that death was not the end, that there was a place for them beyond mortal life. The Elves on the other hand, being tied to the world, did not know what awaited them when Arda was no more.
This was one of the great differences between book and film for me. There was no indication of the different attitudes to death between Men and Elves. Book Elrond, as Lalwendë said is more concerned that Arwen is doomed to be forever sundered from her people, than he is with her eventual mortality. Film Elrond seems to view death as a 'punishment' for living a mortal life.
Perhaps, because I know the 'background' of the books, I did not find Theoden's death tragic. It seemed fitting that he had the chance to die with honour on the battlefield.
On the other hand, whenever I watch TTT, I am always very moved by the deaths of the Elves at Helm's Deep, Haldir in particular. His death seems tragic, after all he is meant to be 'immortal' yet he and the other Elves sacrifice themselves for mortals. I know that this is probably the reaction that PJ hoped to bring about; and with the music, the slow motion camera work and the actor's facial expression as he dies, he succeeds!

[Ar-Pharazon]

Hey here goes my first official post after the introduction post

The perception of death as a gift by Illuvatar to the mortal kinds is lost during the dark years of Melkor/Morgoth's reign in middle earth. Morgoth's creates a fear of death throught the slaying of the three kins and using death as tool to punish them. This twisted the perception of death for them. Men become fearful of death (ie Numenor invades Valinor to take immortality, because their king (my username) fears his impending death).

So I agree that PJ portrayed death as something unknown to all the beings of earth except for Illuvatar. Some fear death as Boromir(movie) did, he was dying in shame until Aragorn tells him that he has reclaimed his honour and fought valiantly and Boromir is calm about dying and his only regret was not seeing Aragorn crowned king. While Theoden feels that he goes into the unknown knowing that he has also reclaimed his honour by leading his people in the war against the shadow.

The shouting of death by the Rohirrim goes in line of the whole speech that Theoden gives to his men. Basically, he is saying that today is a day of battle and bloodspill, and the sun is rising behind us so to battle we go to deal death or be dealth death. "Ride now, ride now, ride for ruin, and the world's ending. Death, death,..."

Now here is the real mind twister for ne one. In the movie Gandalf talks about dying to Pippin when Pippin despairs about this being it. The quote that (Movie) Gandalf uses is the description that (Book) Frodo sees when he is passing into Valinor with the last of the elves. Gandalf is also from Valinor and is thought to be sent by the Valar as the greatest servant of Manwe. Therefore, did PJ make the mistake of using Gandalf to describe mortal death as the immortal's description of the passing into Valinor?

~Ar

[Kath]

Well Ar-Pharazon I'd say that was a pretty good second post! But I wanted to comment on your final point.

did PJ make the mistake of using Gandalf to describe mortal death as the immortal's description of the passing into Valinor?

I think that Gandalf's description was all he knew, and that his words were more to comfort Pippin at the time than actually contain genuine knowledge of what was to come.

Although, Gandalf did 'die' after fighting the Balrog in Moria - so maybe he does know what is to come - and is telling Pippin the truth. Because at that point he would not have been passing into Valinor, but dying a (sort of) mortal death.

[Ar-Pharazon]

To rebut

When (movie) Gandalf describes to Aragorn about his fight with the Balrog

He states:

"I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountain side. The darkness took me and I strayed out of thought and time, and everyday was a life age on the earth. (He says something else here).... But it was not the end." Did he actually die there? Did he die a mortals death or was he just transformed. From the movie perspective.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Ar-Pharazon

Did he actually die there? Did he die a mortals death or was he just transformed. From the movie perspective.

This maybe assume too much - that the movie writers had a coherent philosophy/theology/metaphysics for their Middle earth in mind. I don't think they did. Rather I think they took a lot of things from the book & inserted them in the script because they liked them, & often wrongly - for instance giving Faramir's dream of the great wave to Eowyn. It makes sense in Faramir's case that he would be haunted by the destruction of Numenor, particularly in light of the fact that the enemy which threatened his people was the one responsible for that destruction. Given to Eowyn the dream loses all significance & simply becomes a nightmare inspired by what Eowyn fears will happen to herself & those she loved. There's a whole level of meaning & symbolism which is lost by doing this.

As to the question about Gandalf: I think those lines were placed in his mouth because its more or less what he says in the book (apart from being appalling English: in the book the Balrog breaks the mountainside 'where he smote it in his ruin'. I wonder how its possible to smite someone's 'ruin' what exactly would you be hitting? Perhaps its connected to the wa that a 'list of allies' can grow thin ) rather than because the writers understood Tolkien's concepts.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I'm going to ask a question which is in part inspired by Ar-Pharazon's post.

Originally Posted by Ar-Pharazon

The perception of death as a gift by Illuvatar to the mortal kinds is lost during the dark years of Melkor/Morgoth's reign in middle earth. Morgoth's creates a fear of death throught the slaying of the three kins and using death as tool to punish them. This twisted the perception of death for them. Men become fearful of death (ie Numenor invades Valinor to take immortality, because their king (my username) fears his impending death).

One of the aspects of the Legendarium's ethos which has always intrigued me is this idea that death is a gift. In pagan belief, death appears to have been represented as a part of the cycle of life, with the goddess of three aspects representing both fertility and death. (I say 'appears' as there are many forms of belief in the pagan, pre-Christian world and likely this is an overgeneralisation.)

Death certainly was not a gift in the Christian ethos which Tolkien believed in; it was/is punishment for the sin of disobedience (if I am understanding this correctly) or was a consequence of learning, of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If death is a punishment, then it becomes something to be feared, especially with dark predictions about torment in hell for people who have not behaved according to the required mythology.

What might Tolkien have been trying to suggest in calling death a gift? Is Ar-Pharazon correct in attributing to Melkor this twisted fear of death? Was Tolkien just writing a good story or was there something profound in what he wanted to say about attitudes towards death?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

In pagan belief, death appears to have been represented as a part of the cycle of life, with the goddess of three aspects representing both fertility and death. (I say 'appears' as there are many forms of belief in the pagan, pre-Christian world and likely this is an overgeneralisation.)

This is a nice poser, Bethberry!

I think that this belief has much to do with the idea that the body itself returns to the Earth, returns the nourishment and energy it has gained whilst alive. Much pagan belief also places great importance in the sense of the earth as our Mother, so in effect we are born from her and then return to her. This is possibly why so many barrows and other tombs have small entrances and bear a resemblance to female anatomy; and linked to this are landscape features with names that hint at past reverence as 'mother' figures, such as Mam Tor, or the Paps of Jura.

In Tolkien's world, the spirit of Men leaves Arda at death, which is different to what we know of Pagan or ancient beliefs. Although, I cannot be sure of all the older beliefs, as I have the feeling that the Egyptians may have had something similar in that souls went into the stars?

Anyway, broadly generalising it seems that pagan beliefs see souls as part of the earth while Christian beliefs see souls as apart from the earth. The latter is akin to what happens to Men in/from Arda, but the former is akin to what happens to the Elves.

This has got far away from the original question though, but it would make a great new thread perhaps?