What breaks the enchantment?

[littlemanpoet]

Heh. Not all that old, but sensing time slipping away, as if through the fingers like sand.

Oh, I'm glad Eden is in my heart, and thanks for reminding of the poem with the secret gate. That's very much a piece of my own writing - how could it not be, if Tolkien baptized my imagination, to borrow a phrase from CSL?

I used to feel like 'that place' is just over the horizon, but I always knew I was just kidding myself because flat now is too sapped of faery.

davem, I have to smile sometimes how you communicate with the rest of us on this and other threads, as if you have found the Gospel According to Tolkien and are trying with all your might to communicate the evangelium, trying to get us all to believe. On this thread you have presented a powerful principle, that belief is necessary before its object can be accepted. That has nothing to do with whether it was experienced - I think of CSL's dwarfs in The Last Battle, for example. I for one wish I could go back to the way things used to be for me, and just believe, but it's not in me to do so anymore. I'm going to have to struggle through to the next "whatever". I sense that maybe Fordim and Bêthberry may be facing the same dilemma as I? A pure guess, that.

[davem]

Originally Posted by LMP

davem, I have to smile sometimes how you communicate with the rest of us on this and other threads, as if you have found the Gospel According to Tolkien and are trying with all your might to communicate the evangelium, trying to get us all to believe.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Maybe you're right. I'm not consciously trying to convert anybody, though. I just say what comes to me.

I for one wish I could go back to the way things used to be for me, and just believe, but it's not in me to do so anymore. I'm going to have to struggle through to the next "whatever". I sense that maybe Fordim and Bêthberry may be facing the same dilemma as I? A pure guess, that.

I think that happens when you try too hard. I think enchanment happens when you stop trying to be enchanted - when you stop analysing yourself, & the story, & the author - all the whys & wherefores, the metaphors & tying yourself up in knots with textual analysis & deconstruction & sundry other forms of literary mumbo jumbo. I can't help thinking of Tom & Goldberry, laughing, singing & dancing, living in a constant state of wonder & enchantment. No 'evangelium' there, no desire to convert. Try to analyse Tom, to 'explain' him, & he'll vanish with a wink & a laugh, but accept him, follow him, &

'You shall come home with me! The table is all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb, and white bread and butter.

Then another clear voice, as young and as ancient as Spring, like the song of a glad water flowing down into the night from a bright morning in the hills, came falling like silver to meet them:
Now let the song begin! let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather,
Light on the budding leaf, dew on the feather,
Wind on the open hill, bells on the heather,
Reeds by the shady pool, lilies on the water:
Old Tom Bombadil and the River-daughter!
And with that song the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was all about them.

(See that? I'm doing it again....

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

I think enchantment happens when you stop trying to be enchanted - when you stop analysing yourself, & the story, & the author - all the whys & wherefores, the metaphors & tying yourself up in knots with textual analysis & deconstruction & sundry other forms of literary mumbo jumbo.

I'll plead guilty to analyzing myself, but not the rest. I'm just not objective enough for all that other stuff. What I do analyze (perhaps to my own enchantable demise) is myth and story in general. Perhaps (hah! who am I kidding?) .... It has to do with having a story to tell and fearing that I am unable to adequately ... to which the obvious answer is .... Write the d**n thing! Better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all. But if I write, I won't be here as much. Lousy excuse, since I enjoy the company here. But its part of why I started this thread in the first place. Here I am running off at the mouth, using y'all for my own purposes. Thanks, you've been kind enough to be an (maybe) unknowing, brain-picked sounding board.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

davem, I have to smile sometimes how you communicate with the rest of us on this and other threads, as if you have found the Gospel According to Tolkien and are trying with all your might to communicate the evangelium, trying to get us all to believe. On this thread you have presented a powerful principle, that belief is necessary before its object can be accepted. That has nothing to do with whether it was experienced

Interesting that you cast the discussion this way. And interesting that you smile at davem's zealous proselytising. I can't smile at it because it too much insists that there is only one way to read, one way to enjoy, one way to find that Other Land just over the next page whose scent you just might carry back with you to the waking world. Such fundamentalism I find limiting and even somewhat scary, however eloquently or kindly or sincerely meant. Or however truely or meaningfully experienced by one reader.

But even more interesting, littlemanpoet, is your contrast here between "accepted" and "experienced." That's a nice way of handling the differences on this thread, I think.

So, how or what will you take back to your writing? That you can provide the experience for the reader, but not necessarily the belief?

[davem]

Such fundamentalism I find limiting and even somewhat scary, however eloquently or kindly or sincerely meant. Or however truely or meaningfully experienced by one reader.

This is only a literary discussion. Being scared by anything I've said seems a bit of an over reaction. I'm stating as honestly as I can my own feelings & understanding. If I was advocating firebombing the 'scapegoats', I could understand your reaction, as it is, I can only say I think everyone needs to lighten up. I'm beginning to suspect the halls of accademe are haunted by professors & students in bullet proof gowns & carrying cans of mace, keeping a safe distance from one another in case an idea goes off & everyone gets hit by the shrapnel.

[HerenIstarion]

the halls of accademe are haunted by professors & students in bullet proof gowns...

hmm... that's probably because of quantum...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, how or what will you take back to your writing? That you can provide the experience for the reader, but not necessarily the belief?

Something more humble. Simply that I must write the story I have to write, and will do the best I can. Whether I evoke the experience enough to cast the enchantment, only the reader can say. Belief is beyond my control.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interesting that you cast the discussion this way. And interesting that you smile at davem's zealous proselytising. I can't smile at it because it too much insists that there is only one way to read, one way to enjoy, one way to find that Other Land just over the next page whose scent you just might carry back with you to the waking world. Such fundamentalism I find limiting and even somewhat scary, however eloquently or kindly or sincerely meant. Or however truely or meaningfully experienced by one reader.

Originally Posted by davem

This is only a literary discussion. Being scared by anything I've said seems a bit of an over reaction. I'm stating as honestly as I can my own feelings & understanding. If I was advocating firebombing the 'scapegoats', I could understand your reaction, as it is, I can only say I think everyone needs to lighten up. I'm beginning to suspect the halls of accademe are haunted by professors & students in bullet proof gowns & carrying cans of mace, keeping a safe distance from one another in case an idea goes off & everyone gets hit by the shrapnel.

I'm going to respond to what I've bolded above. "Zealous proselytising" is a phrase loaded with pejorative connotations. I too think it overstates the case.

Fundamentalism is not in and of itself evil, or even bad. It becomes so when it is misguided. That's not what's going on here.

This is only a literary discussion Not entirely accurate, I think. If it were, we wouldn't invest ourselves in these conversations the way we do. A simple literary discussion would be an exchange of equally respected opinions. Tolkien's works touch us at our core beliefs, and we write on these boards passionately. That's why we ruffle each other's feathers sometimes.

I'm stating as honestly as I can my own feelings & understanding. Yes, but you're also trying to be as persuasive as you know how to be. I don't consider that to be identical to zealous proselytizing, but you are trying to change others' minds. Why else would you have the sig you do?

Everyone needs to lighten up. This, and the sarcasm that follows was spoken in ire. Understandable, since you no doubt felt on the defensive. Rather than lighten up (except for H-I, of course! ), we need to exercise courtesy and restraint. At least on this thread, if you please.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But even more interesting, littlemanpoet, is your contrast here between "accepted" and "experienced." That's a nice way of handling the differences on this thread, I think.

Yes, I think we often experience things we (at least initially) can't accept for what they are, not recognizing them for what they are. Fairy tale/fantasy/mythic story is thus an important form of literature, conveying to us unities that we normally wouldn't perceive. Perceived in narrative, they can be experienced "secondarily". It's still up to the reader whether these unities are accepted and/or believed, either secondarily or primarily. I hope that made sense.