Tol-in-Gaurhoth III (The Saga Continues...) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Shelob · 06-06-2005, 05:52 AM

Saucepan Man, you were misreading/misrepresenting me again...

"she did a volte face yesterday concerning Fordim’s proposals" ~Saucepan Man

Frst off I'm not entirely sure what 'volte' means but since the definition seemed to have something todo with either turning in a circle or parying in Fencing I'm guessing you mean that I either edged about the point or made a quick-defensive change...in either case it's understandable, however I didn't mean for it to be read that way...I still think that the 'short-list' idea is inheirently wrong, maybe it's not flawed as I first saw it to be but something about it is just not right...as to the 'seer-protection' plan I still think that the idea has some merit, clearly it doesn't work if it's first suggested in the game but I think that it, or a variation of it, could still be potentially usefull

"she was keen to point out the “double bluff” theory in connection with TGWBS’s death" ~Saucepan Man

Yes I pointed it out early...I was also not alone in doing so, Kuru pointed it out at about the same time I did and Mormegil then admited to have thought of it and not mentioned it solely on the basis that it was too risky. Kuru and I both, in pointing this out, did say that we thought it a risky plan and I distinctly said "I just want this possibility aired so that we don't all ignore it completely..." I don't hold with it now, it doesn't seem likely at all...

That you continue to misread/misrepresent me even after I've pointed it out worries me...if you are misreading me I can forgive you, it's an innocent mistake...if, however, you are intentionally misrepresenting me it either means you're an innocent who is an amazing asset to the werewolves because you muddy up the waters or that you are a werewolf leading a crusade against one you know to be innocent...
...I would give you the benefit of the doubt, I wish to think you just misread what I say, but one would think that if this were the case you wouldn't have repeated the offense after having it pointed out to you...esp. since the first of my complaints above is so similar to one I pointed out before...surely you can't have misread the same thing twice?
It is on this theory, that you are intentionally misrepresenting me, that I feel I must vote ++SAUCEPAN MAN. I am sorry for it, but since I shall likely not be back on before this day's end I feel it to be the best choice that I can make...

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-06-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shelob

That you continue to misread/misrepresent me even after I've pointed it out worries me...

I can understand why you may think that, but what you call misreading/misrepresentation arises simply as a result of my attempts to summarise what you have said, rather to than repeat it at length each time that I post. Believe me, I took the "explanations" that you seek to give into account when forming my views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shelob

if, however, you are intentionally misrepresenting me it either means you're an innocent who is an amazing asset to the werewolves because you muddy up the waters or that you are a werewolf leading a crusade against one you know to be innocent...

While I am most certainly not a Werewolf, I would hate it to be thought that I am an innocent asset to them. All that I have sought to do is set out my thought processes in the hope that they may be of assistance to those others amongst us who are also innocent. If that's "muddying the waters", then I am sorry, but I would rather make my views known and accept the risks that go along with that than do nothing whatsoever to advance the Villagers' cause.

A final plea to those who have not yet voted. A Village troubled by Werewolves is a sad thing. But a Village troubled by Werewolves and lacking anyone to brew the beer is sadder still ...

Firefoot · 06-06-2005, 06:57 AM

Well, I'm not going to be around for the end of the Day, so I will have to post my vote now based on what we have.

I don't agree with the basis for the accusations of SpM, and I'm not enough convinced of the guilt of phantom to be ready to vote for him. At this point I am not thinking either are werewolves. The other vote has been for SoN, and he is and has been at the top of my suspicion list for a while. So: ++SON OF NUMENOR. He has been acting far more wolfish than either phantom or Saucepan.

I see that overnight people have started accusing me of echoing SpM. While it is true that our thoughts have gone in similar directions, let me assure you my opinions are my own. I have read everyone's opinions with equal weight and formed my opinions from that; perhaps SpM and I have marked out the same things as important. But I am not echoing SpM's thoughts. I am stating my own, which are often similar, whether or not they have already been said (if I didn't you'd all probably be trying to accuse me of 'flying under the radar').

(NB: On double lynchings: the rules were changed after the first game. If there is a tie, two (or more...) people are lynched.)

the phantom · 06-06-2005, 07:17 AM

Well, this is my only chance to vote.

I'd actually like to vote for Saucy since he figures into a couple of ideas I've been working on puting together, but SoN also is in one of my theories so he's not a particularly bad choice.

Honestly, I'd normally vote to lynch Saucy first, but I'd feel rather bad doing that since he didn't vote for me when he had the chance. I'll give him a pass this time.

++SoN

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-06-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefoot

On double lynchings: the rules were changed after the first game. If there is a tie, two (or more...) people are lynched.

I agree. I was under the impression that we were using the rule change that I implemented for the second game. Perhaps Eomer could clarify, given the current state of voting.

As matters stand, the phantom, SoN and I will all be lynched. Heck, I would rather see myself lynched, innocent though I am, than potentially have two innocents hanged.

Edit: I wrote this before I saw the phantom's post. Although SoN is yet to vote ...

The Only Real Estel · 06-06-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

(NB: On double lynchings: the rules were changed after the first game. If there is a tie, two (or more...) people are lynched.)

I thought I recalled that.

Well, so far the voting goes:
3 for Son of Numenor
2 for Saucepan Man
2 for the phantom
1 for Holbytlass

I do not think I will vote for phantom because Saucepan's seeming pardon of Fordim has me uneasy and makes me want to substitue Fordim for phantom in my theory (because it would work just as well that way as with the phantom in it). But both Sauce and SoN are highly suspected by me right now and I'm split between the vote. I am 90% sure that we could bag a werewolf with Son, but almost equally as sure we could do the same by hanging Sauce (though his posts of late have cast a few shadows of doubt in my mind).
I plan on posting my vote late, again, hopefully more arguments will come to light by then.

Originally posted by SpM:

Quote:

But I will stick to my beliefs. And to put an end to this silly suggestion that I am somehow in league with SoN, I shall vote right now, before it can be said that I was trying to protect a fellow Werewolf by voting for him only when it was safe to do so.
So I shall vote for:

++ SON OF NUMENOR

But just because you're voting for him hardly puts to rest any questions of league between the two of you. If a wolf senses his partner is going down (and SoN is now the top vote-getter) I would not expect you to vote last or vote otherwise; in other words I wouldn't be at all suprised to see you as a wolf taking down SoN, who is a wolf. And especially seeing how you voting for SoN momentarily tied him with yourself for the most votes.

mormegil · 06-06-2005, 07:22 AM

TORE there is actually two votes for the phantom. Look at post 125 from Azaleia.

Edit: Ah I see that it has been corrected.

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-06-2005, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORE

Well, so far the voting goes:
2 for Son of Numenor
2 for Saucepan Man
1 for Holbytlass
1 for the phantom

Actually, it's:

3 for Son of Numenor
2 for Saucepan Man
1 for Holbytlass
2 for the phantom

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORE

If a wolf senses his partner is going down (and SoN is now the top vote-getter) I would not expect you to vote last or vote otherwise ...

Yet I was the first to vote for him, at a time when only Firefoot, other than I, had given any serious indication of voting for him.

Holbytlass · 06-06-2005, 07:25 AM

Actually, Estel, Phantom has 2 votes from Azalia and Mormegil.
So it's SoN-3
Phantom-2
SpM-2
Holby-1
myself, Fordim, and Estel needing to vote, and less than an hour to do so.
I was going to vote when there was a 3 way tie. Then Oddwen voted for me. Therefore I held off my vote in case I had to save myself.
I will vote for ++Son of Numenor for two reseans(sp?). Obviously now, even if Fordim and Estel vote for me I'm saved from the tied- double lynching. The other (and this is for when I originally was going to vote) I do think that Phantom and Saucepan Man are highly suspicios. Although at this point there smarts are needed. I am scared they are wolves using their wit against the rest of innocents. But then Kuru suggestion of looking to the secondary people comes to mind. If anything at all, the outcome of SoN's death will be very illuminating.

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-06-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

... myself, Fordim, and Estel needing to vote ...

... and SoN.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 06-06-2005, 07:36 AM

Well, one thing that has become clear to me is that I was right about this game when I first heard of it – until the third round, at the earliest, there is nothing approaching “hard evidence” to point toward any one person’s guilt. At this point it is still entirely possible to make arguments for or against everybody! But I am happy to see that the vote is being split amongst so many people, leaving very little wiggle room for the wolves. With five people voted for already, the odds are very good that one of them is a wolf, so we can watch the votes from here out with some interest…

As to my vote, I am stuck. I would love to vote for Kuru on the thinking that he is either, a) a wolf or b) a villager who is helping the wolves inadvertently with his rather confusing and confounding posts. Unfortunately, a single for him at this point is unlikely to get him lynched – the only way that would happen would be if virtually every who is still to vote followed my lead. If he turned out to be an innocent, then this would make me look very very bad. As much as I would like to play this game selflessly, it is clear that I need to take more care for my own skin than that. So for the time, I think, Kuru is safe.

My next choice after Kuru is The Phantom for precisely the same reasons: he is either a wolf, or a villager who is helping the wolves hide with his own flurry of distracting speculations and self-congratulatory “conclusions” about people. The other thing that speaks greatly in favour of voting for TP is that it will break the current three-way tie between himself, Sauce and SoN – the last thing I want is a wholesale slaughter!

Hmmmmm…things are happening fast. Since I typed that last paragraph, The Phantom has gone on to vote for SoN, apparently to save his own neck. Seems fair to me…

The votes at this moment so far as I can tell are:

Phantom 2
Holbytlass 1
Sauce 2
SoN 3

So what do I do? I’m tempted to vote for the Phantom anyway and tie it up again, putting pressure on the remaining voters…

Boy, but the squeeze is being put on me!! If I vote for someone now and they end up getting lynched and they’re innocent, I’ll definitely be considered a wolf. If I tie it up, and there are wolves yet to vote, then they will be able to decide whom to lynch…the safest course for me, personally, is to cast a “meaningless” vote for Kuru who, like I said at the beginning of this bizarrely stream-of-consciousness post, is my first choice…

Just read Holbytlass’s latest post (158) and note that it is down to herself, me and Estel to decide this thing…and Saucy in 159 reminding me of SoN.

All right! That tears it…I need to vote for somebody and I don’t want the weight of being the last to vote. As it would appear as though SoN is the “leader” and as it would appear as though he is trying the rather wolfish strategy of waiting to the last minute to cast his vote (as I would appear to be doing as well, I realize) I am going to vote for

++ Son of Numenor

Even though I have no reason to think that he is a wolf. In fact, I tend to think that he is probably innocent, but this just seems a safer vote to me than one that might allow a late-voting wolf to make a tie and thus wipe out more than one villager. So I am deeply sorry Sono, but this seems to me the best course of action for the villagers…

That having been said, if SoN is innocent, I am going to go after SaucepanMan and The Phantom with everything I’ve got in the next day, since they have lead the charge against SoN today…

Holbytlass · 06-06-2005, 07:37 AM

oh, I forgot about him voting.....great, so much for thinking I was safe.

06-06-2005, 05:52 AM	#1
Shelob Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: At the abysmal Abyss Mall. Posts: 276	Saucepan Man, you were misreading/misrepresenting me again... "she did a volte face yesterday concerning Fordim’s proposals" ~Saucepan Man Frst off I'm not entirely sure what 'volte' means but since the definition seemed to have something todo with either turning in a circle or parying in Fencing I'm guessing you mean that I either edged about the point or made a quick-defensive change...in either case it's understandable, however I didn't mean for it to be read that way...I still think that the 'short-list' idea is inheirently wrong, maybe it's not flawed as I first saw it to be but something about it is just not right...as to the 'seer-protection' plan I still think that the idea has some merit, clearly it doesn't work if it's first suggested in the game but I think that it, or a variation of it, could still be potentially usefull "she was keen to point out the “double bluff” theory in connection with TGWBS’s death" ~Saucepan Man Yes I pointed it out early...I was also not alone in doing so, Kuru pointed it out at about the same time I did and Mormegil then admited to have thought of it and not mentioned it solely on the basis that it was too risky. Kuru and I both, in pointing this out, did say that we thought it a risky plan and I distinctly said "I just want this possibility aired so that we don't all ignore it completely..." I don't hold with it now, it doesn't seem likely at all... That you continue to misread/misrepresent me even after I've pointed it out worries me...if you are misreading me I can forgive you, it's an innocent mistake...if, however, you are intentionally misrepresenting me it either means you're an innocent who is an amazing asset to the werewolves because you muddy up the waters or that you are a werewolf leading a crusade against one you know to be innocent... ...I would give you the benefit of the doubt, I wish to think you just misread what I say, but one would think that if this were the case you wouldn't have repeated the offense after having it pointed out to you...esp. since the first of my complaints above is so similar to one I pointed out before...surely you can't have misread the same thing twice? It is on this theory, that you are intentionally misrepresenting me, that I feel I must vote ++SAUCEPAN MAN. I am sorry for it, but since I shall likely not be back on before this day's end I feel it to be the best choice that I can make... __________________ A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name ~Evan Esar. Pan for Everyone!

06-06-2005, 07:17 AM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Well, this is my only chance to vote. I'd actually like to vote for Saucy since he figures into a couple of ideas I've been working on puting together, but SoN also is in one of my theories so he's not a particularly bad choice. Honestly, I'd normally vote to lynch Saucy first, but I'd feel rather bad doing that since he didn't vote for me when he had the chance. I'll give him a pass this time. ++SoN __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

06-06-2005, 07:22 AM	#7
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	TORE there is actually two votes for the phantom. Look at post 125 from Azaleia. Edit: Ah I see that it has been corrected. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

06-06-2005, 07:25 AM	#9
Holbytlass Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Party Tree Posts: 1,042	Actually, Estel, Phantom has 2 votes from Azalia and Mormegil. So it's SoN-3 Phantom-2 SpM-2 Holby-1 myself, Fordim, and Estel needing to vote, and less than an hour to do so. I was going to vote when there was a 3 way tie. Then Oddwen voted for me. Therefore I held off my vote in case I had to save myself. I will vote for ++Son of Numenor for two reseans(sp?). Obviously now, even if Fordim and Estel vote for me I'm saved from the tied- double lynching. The other (and this is for when I originally was going to vote) I do think that Phantom and Saucepan Man are highly suspicios. Although at this point there smarts are needed. I am scared they are wolves using their wit against the rest of innocents. But then Kuru suggestion of looking to the secondary people comes to mind. If anything at all, the outcome of SoN's death will be very illuminating. __________________ Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII Last edited by Holbytlass; 06-06-2005 at 07:35 AM.

06-06-2005, 07:37 AM	#12
Holbytlass Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Party Tree Posts: 1,042	oh, I forgot about him voting.....great, so much for thinking I was safe. __________________ Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII

06-06-2005, 06:57 AM	#3
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	Well, I'm not going to be around for the end of the Day, so I will have to post my vote now based on what we have. I don't agree with the basis for the accusations of SpM, and I'm not enough convinced of the guilt of phantom to be ready to vote for him. At this point I am not thinking either are werewolves. The other vote has been for SoN, and he is and has been at the top of my suspicion list for a while. So: ++SON OF NUMENOR. He has been acting far more wolfish than either phantom or Saucepan. I see that overnight people have started accusing me of echoing SpM. While it is true that our thoughts have gone in similar directions, let me assure you my opinions are my own. I have read everyone's opinions with equal weight and formed my opinions from that; perhaps SpM and I have marked out the same things as important. But I am not echoing SpM's thoughts. I am stating my own, which are often similar, whether or not they have already been said (if I didn't you'd all probably be trying to accuse me of 'flying under the radar'). (NB: On double lynchings: the rules were changed after the first game. If there is a tie, two (or more...) people are lynched.)

06-06-2005, 07:36 AM	#11
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Well, one thing that has become clear to me is that I was right about this game when I first heard of it – until the third round, at the earliest, there is nothing approaching “hard evidence” to point toward any one person’s guilt. At this point it is still entirely possible to make arguments for or against everybody! But I am happy to see that the vote is being split amongst so many people, leaving very little wiggle room for the wolves. With five people voted for already, the odds are very good that one of them is a wolf, so we can watch the votes from here out with some interest… As to my vote, I am stuck. I would love to vote for Kuru on the thinking that he is either, a) a wolf or b) a villager who is helping the wolves inadvertently with his rather confusing and confounding posts. Unfortunately, a single for him at this point is unlikely to get him lynched – the only way that would happen would be if virtually every who is still to vote followed my lead. If he turned out to be an innocent, then this would make me look very very bad. As much as I would like to play this game selflessly, it is clear that I need to take more care for my own skin than that. So for the time, I think, Kuru is safe. My next choice after Kuru is The Phantom for precisely the same reasons: he is either a wolf, or a villager who is helping the wolves hide with his own flurry of distracting speculations and self-congratulatory “conclusions” about people. The other thing that speaks greatly in favour of voting for TP is that it will break the current three-way tie between himself, Sauce and SoN – the last thing I want is a wholesale slaughter! Hmmmmm…things are happening fast. Since I typed that last paragraph, The Phantom has gone on to vote for SoN, apparently to save his own neck. Seems fair to me… The votes at this moment so far as I can tell are: Phantom 2 Holbytlass 1 Sauce 2 SoN 3 So what do I do? I’m tempted to vote for the Phantom anyway and tie it up again, putting pressure on the remaining voters… Boy, but the squeeze is being put on me!! If I vote for someone now and they end up getting lynched and they’re innocent, I’ll definitely be considered a wolf. If I tie it up, and there are wolves yet to vote, then they will be able to decide whom to lynch…the safest course for me, personally, is to cast a “meaningless” vote for Kuru who, like I said at the beginning of this bizarrely stream-of-consciousness post, is my first choice… Just read Holbytlass’s latest post (158) and note that it is down to herself, me and Estel to decide this thing…and Saucy in 159 reminding me of SoN. All right! That tears it…I need to vote for somebody and I don’t want the weight of being the last to vote. As it would appear as though SoN is the “leader” and as it would appear as though he is trying the rather wolfish strategy of waiting to the last minute to cast his vote (as I would appear to be doing as well, I realize) I am going to vote for ++ Son of Numenor Even though I have no reason to think that he is a wolf. In fact, I tend to think that he is probably innocent, but this just seems a safer vote to me than one that might allow a late-voting wolf to make a tie and thus wipe out more than one villager. So I am deeply sorry Sono, but this seems to me the best course of action for the villagers… That having been said, if SoN is innocent, I am going to go after SaucepanMan and The Phantom with everything I’ve got in the next day, since they have lead the charge against SoN today…