Gandalf: the Unilateral Coalition Builder

[Boromir88]

I'm liking this thread more and more. To back up what davem and Eruanna have said about Saruman possibly being "single-minded," or in a search so strong to complete his task he becomes the person we see in LOTR, I think we have to look at when we first see signs of unusual behavior.

We know in LOTR that Saruman seems to be on his own. The good guys know what he's up to and now realize he's a traitor. And he's not really with Sauron, since he's trying to plan Sauron's own downfall. He's in this on his own.

I think the first strange thing we see from Saruman is when he finds Sauron's servants searching near the Anduin, he is alarmed, but he doesn't tell the Council. At this point Saruman is not "evil," he ends up agreeing to get Sauron out of Dol Guldur, but I've always been baffled by why Saruman didn't tell anyone about Sauron looking near Gladden Fields. I think you two have just answered that. Saruman took his mission the wrong way, he concentrated too hard on succeeding in his mission, he missed the point. Perhaps he felt like to succeed he needed to defeat Sauron by himself? This leads him down the wrong path and to the power-hungry and independent person we see in LOTR.

I'd say that Gandalf is persuasive rather than manipulative.

I agree, Lal, it seems like Gandalf is good at getting people to do what he wants. But, as been said he let's the people have the final say. The first example that comes to mind is Theoden. He advises, and let's Theoden have the final say, and Theoden is wise enough to listen to Gandalf's advice. On the other side we have Denethor, who could care less about Gandalf, but again, Gandalf let's Denethor makes the decisions. As long as Denethor remains in charge, Gandalf may not like Denethor's decisions, but he let's the "Lord" rule as he see's fit. Where manipulation I think goes more towards forcing people and it has more of a negative connotation to it.

[Lhunardawen]

Very interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps we can expand this to a discussion between Gandalf and Saruman in LOTR?

Let's look at the chapter "The Voice of Saruman," then. The way the Rohirrim heard Gandalf's and Saruman's voice suggest a way of how they try to persuade people.

Saruman's voice to them was smooth and enticing, like music to the ears. But looking at the logic behind what he says, we can he see that his "gentle persuasion" is actually a self-serving manipulation. It "sounds fair but feels foul."

Gandalf, on the other hand, had a seemingly more uncouth manner. It looks as if he is trying to get people to see everything his way, forcibly. But he might as well do so if all else fails, for what he has in mind is actually for their benefit. He might "sound foul," but he sure as Mordor "feels fair." Perhaps what gives him the aura of being "bossy" is his accurate grasp of a sense of urgency. He has an idea of what is about to happen, so he knows that if anything needs to be done about it, it has to be done right away.

Another thing, it is painfully obvious that Gandalf is not out to deliberately manipulate, because otherwise he would not let Aragorn out of his sight. He would not have let Aragorn choose his own way, but he did so because he knows that Aragorn would do just as he would in such situations. Gandalf was a mentor towards Aragorn, and apparently Aragorn is a good student (mentee? ) because eventually they became of similar minds. Compare this to the case between Saruman and Grima.

[Anguirel]

I liked davem's point about Saruman's single-minded pursuit of his mission being his downfall. After all, even at his worst he intended to one day topple Sauron.

I am reminded of Celegorm and Curufin, (my heroes!) who kidnapped Luthien and usurped Nargothrond with the ultimate intention of battling Morgoth and retaking the Silmarils-but only once all the realms and resources of Beleriand were under their control, thus making an attack on Morgoth feasible. It's a case of mistaken consequentialist reasoning, and often leads to getting absorbed by the treacherous means and forgetting the noble end.

Gandalf, on the other hand, while he persuades and tricks, thus assuming a "higher" position than his "victims", always does so for their own good, rather than his. Saruman becomes devoid of altruism; Gandalf, even to the very end, advises his Hobbit friends for their benefit:

"I will not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil."

[davem]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps he felt like to succeed he needed to defeat Sauron by himself? This leads him down the wrong path and to the power-hungry and independent person we see in LOTR.

This would likely have been the case if he took his mission so seriously that it became an obsession, drifted into paranoia, & began to feel that no-one else was safe to be entrusted with the mission. Only he had any chance of succeeding as far as he was concerned. He certainly makes himself increasingly isolated, ending up with no-one to talk to or discuss things with. It was almost inevitable that he would end up brooding on his fantasies of becoming the 'saviour' of Middle earth, defeating Sauron & bringing in an age of 'peace & plenty'. Sauron couldn't have wished for easier prey. From this point of view being given the keys of Orthanc, a place where he could isolate himself & make his plans in peace, was possibly the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Gandalf seems to have chosen the wandering life to enable him to perform his task of rallying all good people against Sauron, but either directly or indirectly, planned or not, that life forced him into contact with others, & into dependence on the hospitality & charity of others - in other words, it kept him humble. If pride was Saruman's downfall, humility was Gandalf's 'salvation' - he never lost touch with people, so they never became just 'numbers', expendable means to an end in his mind, as I think they did with Saruman.

[Celuien]

Unfinished Tales:

Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

I think this passage can be interpreted as an early sign of Saruman's pride. Saruman puts himself forward as Sauron's equal while Gandalf fears him. Plus, Saruman's volunteering for the mission despite being warned of the potential of "dimming their knowledge and wisdom" could be a sign that he thinks he is immune to the problem. The only one of the Istari who succeeded was the one who did not volunteer because he didn't think that he was capable of accomplishing the task. Thus, Gandalf would be more alert to the potential for failure through his weaknesses and would be more likely to take steps to correct himself if he saw a problem arising. Maybe the basic inability to recognize his weaknesses is the ultimate source of Saruman's downfall.

I'm also wondering if Varda's "Not as the third" is the beginning of Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf. I think that his making special note of the statement can be read that way if we take it as meaning that Gandalf is not the third ranking of the Istari. It sets up the idea that Saruman is annoyed that Varda would place Gandalf as an equal to him. I can imagine Saruman being nettled by Manwë choosing Gandalf (at least in part) because of the humility that Saruman lacks.

[davem]

That Aule person seems to have either a lot of bad luck in his choice of pupils, or to suffer from a major case of bad judgement! I wonder, though, whether his own 'presumption' might not have rubbed off on his servants. He tended to act without considering the meaning & possible consequences - his creation of the Dwarves being the prime example. Of course, he may have been motivated by the idea of 'set a thief to catch a thief (- whoa! is that behind the 'burglar' idea in TH?).

Saruman, it seems, needed someone around him, with whom he could talk about his plans & desires, someone who could basically tell him he was in danger, but as with so many who go the way he did, that's the very thing he sought to cut himself off from. I wonder if his anger & frustration with Gandalf at Orthanc was due to his having been cut off from both criticism & challenge for so long? Gandalf seems to have spent so long on the recieving end of such things that any pride he may have had to begin with was knocked out of him. Certainly if one is challenged & criticised for long enough one will tend to look deeply at oneself & question ones motives & desires. I think Gandalf, for all his manipulations (as opposed to Saruman's machinations), was acting selflessly - nothing he did was designed to enhance his own position. He even gave up his life to save his friends. He had reached a point of absolute submission to his mission (aarrgh!!!). It had become, in his mind, greater than himself, whereas for Saruman its as if he felt himself to be greater than the mission.

Gandalf does what he must do, Saruman does what he wants - I think this is what's behind his interchange with Gandalf - Saruman states that the white light may be broken, the white cloth dyed, the white page overwritten, & its clear he means that he may do these things. Gandalf effectively challenges not his statements that these things may be done (they are simple facts) but rather his presumption that he has the right to do those things. Saruman is claiming authority, Gandalf is repsonding that his role should be to serve not to control. Of course, by that time Saruman is too far gone to listen, let alone admit he is wrong. For Gandalf, wisdom is dependent on humility, for Saruman it is the opposite.

[Eruanna]

Good points Celuien and davem. It must surely follow then, that Gandalf's humility and 'submission to the mission' (sounds like a rap!) was the very reason that he was chosen to be a ring bearer. Another reason to incur Saruman's jealousy!
That, actually, is something that I've always wondered about. It's clear from the chapter in UT on The Istari, that Saruman knew that Gandalf had a ring of power. So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

That, actually, is something that I've always wondered about. It's clear from the chapter in UT on The Istari, that Saruman knew that Gandalf had a ring of power. So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

Me too.Does anyone know how easy it would be to take a Ring of Power from someone? Would it just be a matter of knocking them unconscious & pulling it off their finger? Would Saruman have risked trying to take the Ring by force? Wouldn't Gandalf have fought back in desperation? We know that if he had to he could defeat a Balrog. Its one thing to subdue & imprison him, because I suspect that neither of them unleashed their full powers in that confrontation, but I think that Gandalf decided that discretion was the better part of valour & let Saruman have that one so he could gain time to make other plans. Perhaps Saruman knew that if he tried to take the Ring from him Gandalf would have gone the whole hog, even if that meant one or both of them ending up dead.

Of course, I'm writing this off the top of my head & I may be totally wrong....

[Lalwendë]

I think that Saruman genuinely believed he could get Gandalf 'on side', and that he was somewhat taken unawares when Gandalf challenged his behaviour. Saruman had become so convinced that he was taking the right path, that he had found a solution to the problem he was trying to solve that he became blinded to what was going an around him, as seen in his surprise at the actions of the Ents.

Which leads me on to what I was going to say...

The difference between Gandalf and Saruman provides an important lesson in Tolkien's world. Gandalf has entered into service while Saruman seeks power. Drawing an analogy from something I know about myself, Gandalf behaves as a civil servant ought to, accepting a role and carrying out the orders from above that he is given, without bringing his own agenda to what he does. He acts without prejudice. Saruman on the other hand exploits the position he has been given. Instead of doing what he has been instructed to do, he goes beyond his brief and in so doing, acts upon his own agenda.

Gandalf in this respect is similar to Frodo, who also accepts a task he is given and enters into service. Both display behaviour which defines the word.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eruanna

So why didn't Saruman try to take it from him when he had Gandalf locked up in Orthanc?

I'm thinking - and I could be wrong - that this is another manifestation of Saruman's pride. Yes, it hurt him and made him jealous to know that people in Middle Earth (at least Cirdan, and the rest of the White Council) trust Gandalf more than him (ouch! a double blow!), but I guess he was confident that his job could be done without the ring.