Gandalf: the Unilateral Coalition Builder

[Lhunardawen]

Very interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps we can expand this to a discussion between Gandalf and Saruman in LOTR?

Let's look at the chapter "The Voice of Saruman," then. The way the Rohirrim heard Gandalf's and Saruman's voice suggest a way of how they try to persuade people.

Saruman's voice to them was smooth and enticing, like music to the ears. But looking at the logic behind what he says, we can he see that his "gentle persuasion" is actually a self-serving manipulation. It "sounds fair but feels foul."

Gandalf, on the other hand, had a seemingly more uncouth manner. It looks as if he is trying to get people to see everything his way, forcibly. But he might as well do so if all else fails, for what he has in mind is actually for their benefit. He might "sound foul," but he sure as Mordor "feels fair." Perhaps what gives him the aura of being "bossy" is his accurate grasp of a sense of urgency. He has an idea of what is about to happen, so he knows that if anything needs to be done about it, it has to be done right away.

Another thing, it is painfully obvious that Gandalf is not out to deliberately manipulate, because otherwise he would not let Aragorn out of his sight. He would not have let Aragorn choose his own way, but he did so because he knows that Aragorn would do just as he would in such situations. Gandalf was a mentor towards Aragorn, and apparently Aragorn is a good student (mentee? ) because eventually they became of similar minds. Compare this to the case between Saruman and Grima.

[Anguirel]

I liked davem's point about Saruman's single-minded pursuit of his mission being his downfall. After all, even at his worst he intended to one day topple Sauron.

I am reminded of Celegorm and Curufin, (my heroes!) who kidnapped Luthien and usurped Nargothrond with the ultimate intention of battling Morgoth and retaking the Silmarils-but only once all the realms and resources of Beleriand were under their control, thus making an attack on Morgoth feasible. It's a case of mistaken consequentialist reasoning, and often leads to getting absorbed by the treacherous means and forgetting the noble end.

Gandalf, on the other hand, while he persuades and tricks, thus assuming a "higher" position than his "victims", always does so for their own good, rather than his. Saruman becomes devoid of altruism; Gandalf, even to the very end, advises his Hobbit friends for their benefit:

"I will not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil."