Just wanted to point out... [Eowyn changes] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

eowyntje · 06-11-2005, 12:36 PM

I find it only partualy believable. It is likely that, after going through such a tramatic experience AND falling hopelessly in love, Eowyn made this chang ebelieving it was best. But I do not find it likely that this made her happy for the rest of her life.
The way I see it, Eowyn had a spirit for adventure and adrenaline, for heroism and a meaningfull life, I don't find it likely that this spirit would leave her after one experience. Eowyn would probably get bored of married life after a while and long for a more exciting life again.

Tolkien made the choices he made and I can't change them, but personaly, I don't find it believable that Eowyn would make such a huge chage and live on feeling happy about who she was for the rets of her life after having givven up so much of herself.

Nimrodel_9 · 06-11-2005, 12:54 PM

Perhaps the wound from the Witch King wasn't all that changed her. Maybe it was just from great loss because of the wars going on. First Theodred died, then all of the men at Helm's Deep and Pellenor, and later Theoden. Yes, the battle at the Pellenor Fields was won, but now her people are going to the Black Gate. Maybe she just feels that they won't come back and she is kind of giving up the will to live.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 06-12-2005, 03:27 AM

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Ever notice how Eowyn angrily asks Aragorn "And must I always be the one chosen [to stay behind when there's fighting]?" and then she goes and marries Faramir, whose job is to stay behind when there's fighting?

Eowyn was infatuated with Aragorn at the time she said that. Though Eowyn appeared to be a tough shieldmaiden, I don't think she ever wanted to go to war for the "pleasure" of fighting. I'd say she become very frustrated as the years went by seeing the corruption of Rohan without being able to prevent it. Maybe she was even a bit revengeful having lost many close people in battles.

This battle that was now coming was about to change all their lives and finally she would have had a way to do something for a common benefit. Nursing Theoden had probably taken it's toll on Eowyns patience. If they lost the battle, there wouldn't be a safe place left (nor happiness) for her and if they won, she would have had her share in reaching the victory. Anyway, I think it's understandable that she wasn't all that eager to depart from her loved ones (possibly for good).

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Maybe she just feels that they won't come back and she is kind of giving up the will to live.

That's the feeling that reflects from the House of Healing chapter. At times I get a little "teen anxiety" impression of Eowyn's behaviour but on the other hand, I think all her feelings aren't as gloomy as she says.

I don't think encountering the W-K had much to do with her marrying Faramir. Besides, it surely wasn't Faramir's job to stay behind. This time he was just unincapable to fight as he was badly wounded. Faramir was a great warrior and leader. Not as experienced or skillful as Aragorn, though, but I don't think those were the only qualities that Eowyn thought of in choosing a husband.

The "glory" of war may had intrigued her but if she had found love with Faramir, did she really lust for swashbuckling? Love, after all, seems to be a quite unpredictable thing.

eowyntje · 06-12-2005, 03:56 AM

I think what would make a veyr interetsing debate, would be to compare eowyn's behaviour to that of a teenager. Her wildness and motives do indeed resemble that of a teenager: a desire for adventure, a desire to proof yourself, a desire to have a meaningful life and make things better, a desire to break free from those who hold you back with rules. These are things teenagers deal with as well.
But Eowyn was hardly a teenager anymore, and she changes to fast that it could not have been explained as a simple proces of 'growing up'.
The teenager-eowyn link is interesting though.

Mithalwen · 06-12-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eowyntje

The way I see it, Eowyn had a spirit for adventure and adrenaline, for heroism and a meaningfull life, I don't find it likely that this spirit would leave her after one experience. Eowyn would probably get bored of married life after a while and long for a more exciting life again.

Tolkien made the choices he made and I can't change them, but personaly, I don't find it believable that Eowyn would make such a huge chage and live on feeling happy about who she was for the rets of her life after having givven up so much of herself.

Without wanting to sound as old as Methuselah's grannie, I would say that my view of Eowyn has changed in the years since I first read LOTR as a 10 year old. Then I felt let down that she had "settled" for marriage seemed so soppy after fighting fell beasts, then as a teenage feminist I felt she had really let the side down. Now with age, if not maturity

. I see her situation differently.

The Eowyn who rides to war is not doing it for kicks or adventure, she is desperate, her spirit is under a shadow, and more or less has a deathwish. In a sense her decision is selfish (though totally understandable) since she disobeys her lord's command. She cannot bear to be left alone to be leader of a people in thrall to Sauron. She has had no positive female role model having lost her mother young, and her aunt having already died in childbirth. Meanwhile the remainder of her family are men and mighty warriors, lords of a warlike people. But as a woman this route to status and respect is not open to her. This may be the secret of her desire to be a shield maiden rather than it being her natural vocation. I know myself what a motivator being told you can't do something because you are a girl is!

At the moment Aragorn arrives, her cousin is dead, her brother out of favour, her uncle under malign influence, she has a major league creep on her tail, the whole country faces ruin and noone is doing anything about it. Then this dynamic leader arrives and offers hope and it is inevitable she will be attracted to him. But he too tells her to be a good girl and stay at home and keep the home fires burning. And Eowyn is not passive so she choses to ride to near certain death rather than wait for near certain death - and probably a slower, less clean one - come to her.

She goes to war and does a mightier deed than she could have imagined, but it does not bring her fulfilment, but if anything increases her despair. If you look at the "Steward and the King" you see that she is acutely aware of the reality of the situation, is an active realist in a situation that agin demands her to be a passive fatalist. Then a change comes both in herself and the world situation, and I believe the change is not one that will demean her but rather enrich her - allow her to become a more complete person rather than a lesser one. Tolkien does not palm her off with Faramir, he unites his most interesting, rounded and psychologically interesting characters.
Theirs is a mental as well as a physical attraction and he loves her for herself not just becasue she is beautiful. I always think of this bit of Yeats for them:

"How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim Soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;"

It is possible (so I'm told

) for marriage to be an enriching experience and Eowyn does not look on her future as negative rather than positive "The Sahdow has departed, I will be a shieldmaiden no longer... nor take joy only in the songs of slaying, I will be a healer and take joy in all things that grow and are not barren"..
She has chosen life over death ... to be creative not destructive and has a clever, handsome, supportive husband to keep her company on the way.... not such a bad deal all things considered......

And gardeners always have challenges ...

Lalwendë · 06-12-2005, 12:26 PM

I think also with Eowyn Tolkien chose to use her to more clearly illustrate the horror of war. Here we see someone who has not been to war before experiencing it in its full horror. She not only sees comrades felled on the field but she sees her uncle, her surrogate father felled. The men she is with have experienced battle before, and even though it will also be horrific to them, the use of Eowyn, someone inexperinced in this, draws a more clear contrast.

There could also be something being made clear in the contrast of Eowyn's beauty with the ugliness of war. Such a contrast could not be as clearly achieved if Tolkien had used one of the men in such a context - not because women are there only to be beautiful, but because Tolkien has already made a point of telling us how fragile she looks. He could have achieved the same effect by using a male character and telling us how fragile he was, but the image of a woman in the midst of a battlefield is more incongruous (or it certainly was when he was writing!) and therefore shocking.

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Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And gardeners always have challenges ...

Yes, she could always have kept her swordplay up to scratch by felling slugs in an interesting fashion...

But seriously, just because she agreed to marry Faramir and live a peaceful existence it does not mean that she went into a life of cooking and cleaning; she married a powerful man who, as Mithalwen says, seems to love her for who she is, not what she looks like. As Middle Earth entered the Fourth Age there would be much work to be done requiring those who could rebuild, and much less need for fighters.

Mithalwen · 06-12-2005, 12:45 PM

Yes.. the horror is part of what I feel increases her despair - and it is one of the things that was conveyed well in the film. I could talk about Eowyn for hours and often distract myself up pathways, but I do think that Tolkien hints that the relationship is as happy and fruitful (in all senses) that we would wish. THe regeneration of Ithilien is a great task and I always think it is in a small way a recreation of Numenor - a fair land of men enriched by the gifts of elves. But then I also think that Faramir and Eowyn are a positive reworking of Aldarion and Erendis - who is the only other really strong, psychologically developed mortal female character I can think of (excluding HoME). But instead of the two strong characters fighting each leading to destruction, these two will cooperate and acheive more together than they could alone. At least that is my instinct. It is an interesting piece of writing - I have to say that even some of Tolkien's main characters lack depth but those characters .... usually the ones who are not either all dark or all light are superbly drawn and just fall spring from the page.

eowyntje · 06-16-2005, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But seriously, just because she agreed to marry Faramir and live a peaceful existence it does not mean that she went into a life of cooking and cleaning; she married a powerful man who, as Mithalwen says, seems to love her for who she is, not what she looks like. As Middle Earth entered the Fourth Age there would be much work to be done requiring those who could rebuild, and much less need for fighters.

Very good point, as Faramir accepted and loved all sides of Eowyn, marriage would not have to mean that eowyn would turn into a boring housewife. Also, Eowyn's decision to marry Faramir would make sence if she trusted him to indeed let her be all she could be.

What I can't understand, is: "I will be a shieldmaiden no longer... nor take joy only in the songs of slaying, I will be a healer and take joy in all things that grow and are not barren"
This seems a very drastic change that effects Eowyn's entire character, how could someone change so much? "The Sahdow has departed, I will be a shieldmaiden no longer... nor take joy only in the songs of slaying, I will be a healer and take joy in all things that grow and are not barren"..
This seems to me to be a very drastic change in eowyn's character? How could one change so much in moments? It seems to me impossible that her old spirit would have completely left her. Maybe I lack the maturity to understand the beauty and fulfillment of healing, it seems like a boring job to me. :P

mormegil · 06-16-2005, 12:47 PM

I feel that a point we are missing is how Tolkien seemed to view those who are healers or gardners. It's obvious Tolkien did not glorify war and Eowyn can lead as a succesful and fullfilling life healing and tending as she could being a shieldmaiden. Look at Numenor in the first 2000 years or so. There weren't warriors and this was the greatest civilization among mortals ever to exist. Tolkien holds them in high esteem.

The difference being that we don't hear much about that because they don't make as interesting a story as war would. The legends wouldn't be passed down as readily as those of great warriors ie Hurin, Beren, Fingolfin, et al.

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This seems to me to be a very drastic change in eowyn's character? How could one change so much in moments? It seems to me impossible that her old spirit would have completely left her.

Without going into details I can say the I had the shadow pass from me about 9 years ago and I changed in a moment. I felt entirely different from one moment to the next. So this drastic a change in character is not as shocking to me.

Mithalwen · 06-16-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eowyntje

Very good point, as Faramir accepted and loved all sides of Eowyn, marriage would not have to mean that eowyn would turn into a boring housewife. Also, Eowyn's decision to marry Faramir would make sence if she trusted him to indeed let her be all she could be.

What I can't understand, is: "I will be a shieldmaiden no longer... nor take joy only in the songs of slaying, I will be a healer and take joy in all things that grow and are not barren"
This seems a very drastic change that effects Eowyn's entire character, how could someone change so much? "The Sahdow has departed, I will be a shieldmaiden no longer... nor take joy only in the songs of slaying, I will be a healer and take joy in all things that grow and are not barren"..
This seems to me to be a very drastic change in eowyn's character? How could one change so much in moments? It seems to me impossible that her old spirit would have completely left her. Maybe I lack the maturity to understand the beauty and fulfillment of healing, it seems like a boring job to me. :P

I think there has been a drastic change in Eowyn's situation which means that a new world has opened up ... she has come so close to death and now, in an oasis of tranquility with fate poised but her helpless to act she has a moment of great clarity and self awareness. Not driven by the need to alter the course of events she realises what she wants, it is to be creative not destructive. Tolkien does suggest that it may be a change in her perception rather than her nature.

As for the lack of appeal of healing....well I don't want to sound patronising but I think you may be right but only maybe you have been lucky enough never to have encountered serioous illness close up.

My mother's cancer was diagnosed at a very late stage and she was close to death. Within a couple of weeks of starting chemo she was almost back to her normal life ... it didn't heal her but it gave her another 10 months of good quality remission I cannot tell you how precious that time was.

I have a friend who just finished radiotherapy on tuesday. - she had cancer first 12 years ago. Thanks to healers she has seen her kids get to be teenagers, and now becasue the return was diagnosed at a routine check up she has a good chance of seeing them reach adulthood.

Without healers I would have died at 3 weeks old.....

I cannot think of many jobs more interesting, fulfilling and beautiful than giving people back their health.....

davem · 06-16-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eowyntje

This seems a very drastic change that effects Eowyn's entire character, how could someone change so much? "The Sahdow has departed, I will be a shieldmaiden no longer... nor take joy only in the songs of slaying, I will be a healer and take joy in all things that grow and are not barren"..
This seems to me to be a very drastic change in eowyn's character? How could one change so much in moments? It seems to me impossible that her old spirit would have completely left her. Maybe I lack the maturity to understand the beauty and fulfillment of healing, it seems like a boring job to me. :P

I wonder how complete Eowyn's change was - she says she will no longer 'take joy only in the songs of slaying'. This implies that the side of her that took joy in the songs of slaying will remain a part of her. I think it will be an interesting marriage

Mithalwen · 06-16-2005, 01:56 PM

Well while I doubt very much that she would be a "surrendered" passive wife ... I don't think Faramir should panic too much .. I think she has made a full commitment to giving up the shield maiding... That said I think the knowledge that your wife is capable of dispatching both a fell beast and the Lord of the Nazgul (albeit hobbit assisted) would keep most husbands up to scratch .... bet he wouldn't forget their anniversaries or get back late from the office when he is due to babysit Elboron while she is out with the girls

Lalwendë · 06-16-2005, 04:31 PM

There's another thing about Eowyn that makes me think that she did not undergo such a great change. She was not always a shieldmaiden, and I do not get the impression that it was always even a desire for her. Yes, she has the skills to ride and use a sword, and she is brave enough to face the Witch King, but this seems to be a latent desire which is awakened when she meets Aragorn. I wonder just how much this interest was stirred by his appearance in her life?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

I wonder how complete Eowyn's change was - she says she will no longer 'take joy only in the songs of slaying'. This implies that the side of her that took joy in the songs of slaying will remain a part of her. I think it will be an interesting marriage

Hmm, I can just see Eowyn singing a rousing chorus about hewing bodies apart and being soaked in blood while she tends to the household.

Bêthberry · 07-04-2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yes, she could always have kept her swordplay up to scratch by felling slugs in an interesting fashion...

Well, if Eowyn is going to rehabilitate the gardens of Ithilien, she will have to learn that slugs are not best felled by the sword, but by beer.

Yes, and it would be a difficult choice, trying to choose between ale, lager, or porter. You might say it would call for a stout heart. Perhaps in this matter she could best be advised by Merry. Maybe she could even write a corresponding Hoplore of Ithilien?

Essex · 07-04-2005, 09:55 AM

eowyn assisted heavily in saving middle earth - (I won't for the umpteenth time, explain my reasonings behind this - but it's to do with the domino effect of killing the witch king)

so she's done her part - she's now met a fella, so why can't she settle down to a bit of lovin'??????

but who knows she didn't join in with her brother eomer and aragorn in the continued battles after LOTR ended?

06-11-2005, 12:36 PM	#1
eowyntje Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 47	I find it only partualy believable. It is likely that, after going through such a tramatic experience AND falling hopelessly in love, Eowyn made this chang ebelieving it was best. But I do not find it likely that this made her happy for the rest of her life. The way I see it, Eowyn had a spirit for adventure and adrenaline, for heroism and a meaningfull life, I don't find it likely that this spirit would leave her after one experience. Eowyn would probably get bored of married life after a while and long for a more exciting life again. Tolkien made the choices he made and I can't change them, but personaly, I don't find it believable that Eowyn would make such a huge chage and live on feeling happy about who she was for the rets of her life after having givven up so much of herself. __________________ No matter what they think or what they do, No matter what they feel Or what they see in you, You're gonna get there, Whatever they say, And nobody's going to stand, in the way

06-11-2005, 12:54 PM	#2
Nimrodel_9 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Utah Posts: 734	Perhaps the wound from the Witch King wasn't all that changed her. Maybe it was just from great loss because of the wars going on. First Theodred died, then all of the men at Helm's Deep and Pellenor, and later Theoden. Yes, the battle at the Pellenor Fields was won, but now her people are going to the Black Gate. Maybe she just feels that they won't come back and she is kind of giving up the will to live. __________________ .:A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart:.

06-12-2005, 03:56 AM	#4
eowyntje Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 47	I think what would make a veyr interetsing debate, would be to compare eowyn's behaviour to that of a teenager. Her wildness and motives do indeed resemble that of a teenager: a desire for adventure, a desire to proof yourself, a desire to have a meaningful life and make things better, a desire to break free from those who hold you back with rules. These are things teenagers deal with as well. But Eowyn was hardly a teenager anymore, and she changes to fast that it could not have been explained as a simple proces of 'growing up'. The teenager-eowyn link is interesting though. __________________ No matter what they think or what they do, No matter what they feel Or what they see in you, You're gonna get there, Whatever they say, And nobody's going to stand, in the way

06-12-2005, 12:45 PM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Yes.. the horror is part of what I feel increases her despair - and it is one of the things that was conveyed well in the film. I could talk about Eowyn for hours and often distract myself up pathways, but I do think that Tolkien hints that the relationship is as happy and fruitful (in all senses) that we would wish. THe regeneration of Ithilien is a great task and I always think it is in a small way a recreation of Numenor - a fair land of men enriched by the gifts of elves. But then I also think that Faramir and Eowyn are a positive reworking of Aldarion and Erendis - who is the only other really strong, psychologically developed mortal female character I can think of (excluding HoME). But instead of the two strong characters fighting each leading to destruction, these two will cooperate and acheive more together than they could alone. At least that is my instinct. It is an interesting piece of writing - I have to say that even some of Tolkien's main characters lack depth but those characters .... usually the ones who are not either all dark or all light are superbly drawn and just fall spring from the page. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

06-16-2005, 01:56 PM	#12
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Well while I doubt very much that she would be a "surrendered" passive wife ... I don't think Faramir should panic too much .. I think she has made a full commitment to giving up the shield maiding... That said I think the knowledge that your wife is capable of dispatching both a fell beast and the Lord of the Nazgul (albeit hobbit assisted) would keep most husbands up to scratch .... bet he wouldn't forget their anniversaries or get back late from the office when he is due to babysit Elboron while she is out with the girls __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-04-2005, 09:55 AM	#15
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	eowyn assisted heavily in saving middle earth - (I won't for the umpteenth time, explain my reasonings behind this - but it's to do with the domino effect of killing the witch king) so she's done her part - she's now met a fella, so why can't she settle down to a bit of lovin'?????? but who knows she didn't join in with her brother eomer and aragorn in the continued battles after LOTR ended?