That good night: gift or punishment? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 06-15-2005, 03:13 PM

Death, as defined by Christian theology, is separation from God.

When Adam and Eve fell to temptation, according to the mythology (true myth for those who wish to see it that way), they became "dead in sin". That is to say, they had begun to suffer separation from God because they had done what God said they must not do.

The cessation of physical function in a human is the physical manifestation of Death. The non-physical manifestation (if one may call it that) is the soul's/spirit's experience of reality as apart-from-God. To any who hunger for God, this is tantamount to eternal starvation rather than salvation.

The Death as described above, is what the Someone changed about 2000 years ago.

So Death is no gift, understood in this way, could never be, and is not, I think, what Tolkien is talking about. I don't think he meant the cessation of physical function as the Gift of Death to Men. Nor do I think it's mere release from the trammels of this life.

The Christian view looks forward to a New Heaven and a New Earth, in which human bodies and spirits have been re-created to live, in-God, for eternity. Perhaps the gift Tolkien writes of is nothing more, nothing less, than the hope for something more beyond the circles of Arda.

davem · 06-15-2005, 03:44 PM

This will again seem like I'm on my hobby horse, but I think we have to restrict ourselves to the way in which death can be seen as a 'gift' within the context of Middle earth. In Middle earth there is no account of what happens to men after death. They die & leave the circles of the world. That's it. No-one knows what happens to them - or even if anything does. It is implied that there is a continuation in some form, but of what kind is an open question.

So, how can death be seen as a gift within Middle earth? Men are not bound by the Music, so can change the world, in a way that other races/beings cannot, they can therefore 'think outside the box'. Yet they have a love of Arda - different from the love of Arda of the Elves. They have a desire to remain within the world, yet a curiosity about what may lie outside it. Men are called the 'Guests' by the Elves, because they only spend a little time in the world. In a sense they don't belong in the world & for all their love of it, they know that. Men know they have a different destiny - they are created with a desire for other things, for reasons only known to Eru. They have a central part to play because of that destiny.

Maybe that is the reason death is called a 'gift' - not death itself but the role they have within Arda of which death is a part - a central, essential, part, but a part nonetheless. Death is the means by which they fulfil their role.

Whatever we may say about Men within Middle earth they were not Christians, because they couldn't be. So, whatever hope Christianity offers Christians it is not relevant to Men in Middle earth. Their role & purpose, their 'gift', has nothing to do with Christianity. Aragorn accepts his 'gift' & leaves the world when it is his time, not because he is a Christian, but because he is a man in Middle earth.

In short, I don't think Christianity can offer an explanation of Death as a 'gift' to Men in Middle earth. If the secondary world is to stand alone & not require a primary world explanation for it to make sense - in which case applicability will cease to work & allegory be the only viable alternative - the answer to this question will have to be found within Middle earth, not outside it.

Or to put it another way, in this context (alone) the Christian understanding & explanation, is a cop out...

littlemanpoet · 06-15-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

In short, I don't think Christianity can offer an explanation of Death as a 'gift' to Men in Middle earth.

I do believe that you and I are saying the same thing in our own way. Nice to agree with you finally again.

06-15-2005, 03:13 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	a little bit of theology.... Death, as defined by Christian theology, is separation from God. When Adam and Eve fell to temptation, according to the mythology (true myth for those who wish to see it that way), they became "dead in sin". That is to say, they had begun to suffer separation from God because they had done what God said they must not do. The cessation of physical function in a human is the physical manifestation of Death. The non-physical manifestation (if one may call it that) is the soul's/spirit's experience of reality as apart-from-God. To any who hunger for God, this is tantamount to eternal starvation rather than salvation. The Death as described above, is what the Someone changed about 2000 years ago. So Death is no gift, understood in this way, could never be, and is not, I think, what Tolkien is talking about. I don't think he meant the cessation of physical function as the Gift of Death to Men. Nor do I think it's mere release from the trammels of this life. The Christian view looks forward to a New Heaven and a New Earth, in which human bodies and spirits have been re-created to live, in-God, for eternity. Perhaps the gift Tolkien writes of is nothing more, nothing less, than the hope for something more beyond the circles of Arda.

06-15-2005, 03:44 PM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	This will again seem like I'm on my hobby horse, but I think we have to restrict ourselves to the way in which death can be seen as a 'gift' within the context of Middle earth. In Middle earth there is no account of what happens to men after death. They die & leave the circles of the world. That's it. No-one knows what happens to them - or even if anything does. It is implied that there is a continuation in some form, but of what kind is an open question. So, how can death be seen as a gift within Middle earth? Men are not bound by the Music, so can change the world, in a way that other races/beings cannot, they can therefore 'think outside the box'. Yet they have a love of Arda - different from the love of Arda of the Elves. They have a desire to remain within the world, yet a curiosity about what may lie outside it. Men are called the 'Guests' by the Elves, because they only spend a little time in the world. In a sense they don't belong in the world & for all their love of it, they know that. Men know they have a different destiny - they are created with a desire for other things, for reasons only known to Eru. They have a central part to play because of that destiny. Maybe that is the reason death is called a 'gift' - not death itself but the role they have within Arda of which death is a part - a central, essential, part, but a part nonetheless. Death is the means by which they fulfil their role. Whatever we may say about Men within Middle earth they were not Christians, because they couldn't be. So, whatever hope Christianity offers Christians it is not relevant to Men in Middle earth. Their role & purpose, their 'gift', has nothing to do with Christianity. Aragorn accepts his 'gift' & leaves the world when it is his time, not because he is a Christian, but because he is a man in Middle earth. In short, I don't think Christianity can offer an explanation of Death as a 'gift' to Men in Middle earth. If the secondary world is to stand alone & not require a primary world explanation for it to make sense - in which case applicability will cease to work & allegory be the only viable alternative - the answer to this question will have to be found within Middle earth, not outside it. Or to put it another way, in this context (alone) the Christian understanding & explanation, is a cop out... __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 06-15-2005 at 03:50 PM.