That good night: gift or punishment?

[obloquy]

What you may have missed, alatar, is called Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, and it is found in HoMe X.

H-I: When reading the Athrabeth, did you not get the impression that Andreth was reporting a belief that was not necessarily true? It seemed to me that she was relating a myth that was held by Men out of envy of the Elves. It has been a while since I've read it, now; however, as I recall, Finrod did not swallow her revelations on Man's fall whole.

[Lalwendë]

Thinking around the issue of whether death is punishment or gift, what happens to Men who do not die? Who are these Men? There is Earendil, but he is fated to ride in his ship for ever - and he is half-Elven. The Ring Bearers are permitted to travel to the Undying Lands but we do not know what their fate might be. Tuor is the only known figure who does become immortal as the Elves are immortal, and this is speculative.

Who else gives up the gift of Death? The Nazgul. These were once mortals, but now they are fea without a hroa, they are houseless spirits. This is a reversal of what happens when a mortal dies, that their fea leaves the earth; instead, the Nazgul remain, but without their bodies.

In the following words, spoken to Eowyn, it seems that the WK is talking of a choice she can have, a choice between simple death, or something else:

A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

What is interesting also in these lines is that the WK makes mention of 'the houses of lamentation'. Is this some kind of alternative Halls of Mandos? A place where, instead of fea and hroa being brought together again, they are permanently separated? If death is Eru's gift, then it might logically follow that Morgoth/Sauron might seek to take that gift away. For them to simply kill Men is no punishment at all, they must keep Men alive in some way.

So in this sense, Eowyn is either extremely brave or utterly foolish to stand in his way. In a very real sense, she could face a fate worse than death.

I remember Eomer of the Rohirrim saying many months ago that these lines were chilling, and they are! If we think of what the Nazgul are, and of what happens to the Ringbearers (at first living hale lives like Bilbo but then declining into wretched figures like Gollum), their fate is horrible enough, but from what the WK says, this can be done by other means. Whether done slowly or quickly, it still seems disturbing. It does bring to mind the horror of the Oblation Board in His Dark Materials and what they do to the children and their daemons.

So, apart from the odd example of Earendel, and the possibility that Tuor escaped 'Death', the only mortals we know about who escape death are the Nazgul and anyone they might send to 'the halls of lamentation'. It seems that death is indeed a gift from Eru looked at in these terms.

[obloquy]

The Ringwraiths were not houseless fear. They could still interact with physical objects, and their physical garments still found a surface to drape over, so there's no reason to believe they were truly immaterial. I think they simply had badly perverted hroar made invisible by the same magic that allowed The One Ring to confer invisibility.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by obloquy

H-I: When reading the Athrabeth, did you not get the impression that Andreth was reporting a belief that was not necessarily true? It seemed to me that she was relating a myth that was held by Men out of envy of the Elves. It has been a while since I've read it, now; however, as I recall, Finrod did not swallow her revelations on Man's fall whole

It did. But the reasoning is simple: the only text discussing the matter presents certain theory. Even if it is doubted by one of the participants, we have no other textually backed theory to lean on. We lean on what we have.

Besides, in the part discussing the destiny of men, just before he comes out with This then, I propound, was the errand of Men... etc, Finrod's heart 'leaps with joy' - an indication of recognition of truth.

It is not that hard to elaborate thence and get the essence of my posts above

Originally Posted by obloquy

The Ringwraiths were not houseless fear. They could still interact with physical objects, and their physical garments still found a surface to drape over, so there's no reason to believe they were truly immaterial. I think they simply had badly perverted hroar made invisible by the same magic that allowed The One Ring to confer invisibility.

Nail hit on the head, I daresay

[Lhunardawen]

A bit silly, but when I first read that conversation between Eowyn and WK, I thought WK was merely scaring the daylights out of Eowyn with no intention (nor capability, possibly) to make good his threat.

[davem]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The Ringwraiths were not houseless fear. They could still interact with physical objects, and their physical garments still found a surface to drape over, so there's no reason to believe they were truly immaterial. I think they simply had badly perverted hroar made invisible by the same magic that allowed The One Ring to confer invisibility.

Except Tolkien calls them Ringwraiths, & a wraith is defined by Dictionary.com as:

1:An apparition of a living person that appears as a portent just before that person's death.
2:The ghost of a dead person.
3:Something shadowy and insubstantial.

Definition 3 is the problem. Tolkien knew very well what the word wraith meant. As to their ability to impact the physical, that is a problem, but not beyond another, 'magical' explanation.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

Except Tolkien calls them Ringwraiths, & a wraith is defined by Dictionary.com as:



Definition 3 is the problem. Tolkien knew very well what the word wraith meant. As to their ability to impact the physical, that is a problem, but not beyond another, 'magical' explanation.

I don't see any reason to quibble with Tolkien over a definition. It's true that he did not fully flesh out the details of his Nazgul, but I don't think they fall too far outside that definition for us to take issue with him. After all, many people would equate invisibility with insubstance anyway. That said, the fact is that the Ringwraiths were not wraiths in the strictest sense of the word. They could not pass through walls and they could wear clothing. Additionally, they had to rely on physical locomotion and were hampered by those same factors and forces that affect any physical Man or Elf. Although I've never seen it discussed, it seems to me that a true spirit's method of locomotion would be instantaneous, since I can't imagine what speed restrictions could be placed upon a disembodied consciousness.

Of course, I haven't spent much time in the spiritual realm, ROLF!!!!!!!

[Lhunardawen]

It's also inconceivable how mere spirits could fear water or even drown in it, if mere spirits are what the Nazgul are.

[alatar]

Been putting this one off for a while; been busy, been distracted, but anyway...here goes. And I'm hoping that this ties into the thread somehow.

My father, as stated earlier in this thread, lost his fight with cancer this summer. He remained at home to the end, and so I was able to be with him some of those last months and days. His body got progressively worse, but his mind stayed as sharp as ever. He realized that the tube that was feeding him was only feeding the cancer, and it gave him no comfort, and so one day he made a similar decision to that of King Elessar - to let go instead of trying to hold on to each drop of life.

That was a hard day, as I knew that at that point the clock was ticking, and it was only a matter of time - sometimes knowing biology isn't that fun. I think that he was concerned that if he didn't make that choice while he was still cognizant that he might get so debilitated that he would not be able to make his wishes known. Can you imagine that? It's like pulling the trigger on a gun where the bullet doesn't hit you until a week later. Also running through his head, besides being tired of his life, was that he was a burden to the family - more and more each day - and I think that he wanted to end that too.

Surely I wanted him to stay as long as he could, but also I respected his decision to leave. We never had one of those 'good bye' scenes like you see in movies, but we each knew what was happening. Maybe like Arwen, up to then I was like, "yes, it's terminal, but this is my father, whose family is long-lived, and we have many days/months/years ahead of us." It's like I knew, but was disconnected from the truth. He was dying, and soon would be dead. Gone. No more a voice on the phone or even a man lying in bed.

Reality showed up.

He let go, and less than a week later was gone. Like Aragorn, he made sure that his kingdom was in order before going. Unlike Aragorn, my father was leaving pain for either somewhere better or at least somewhere were pain did not exist.

I miss him now and then, but what makes me sad is knowing how much my children miss their 'pap.'

Sorry, but just had to go there as I can't help but sometimes relating this to Aragorn's decision.