Luthien & Galadriel

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I believe that it is impossible for Galadriel to have equalled Luthien, even if she had "Feanorian" powers and Nenya. My reason?

Elrond.

Elrond is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings to be Galadriel's peer. They have their "specialties", sure enough, but overall they are comparable. In some ways, Elrond is clearly the superior.

While it is true that Elrond bears Vilya, said to be the greatest of the Three Rings, I highly doubt that the difference in Ring-Power would make him Galadriel's equal, if she is of "Feanorian" power.

The reason lies in his descent from Luthien. Tolkien refers to the lineage of Luthien in Elros' descendents as being the key to their "divine"-like status- not their royalty or Elven blood. In addition, note this quote from "The Houses of Healing":



Elrond's power is clearly tied to being much older than Aragorn, and the power is obviously from their joint lineage, a lineage in which Luthien figures most prominently, and to which Tolkien refers most often. Tolkien refers to Luthien more than any other First Age ancestor in connection to Aragorn than any other in his Letters- including Earendil.

Now, if Luthien's great-grandson is such a powerful figure based on her blood, and if her blood is still shaping the lives of her descendents as far down as Aragorn, then I would say that it's quite unlikely Galadriel was her equal, Nenya or no Nenya.

In no way is Elrond equal to Galadriel. Peer perhaps but not her equal. Galadriel is often described as Feanor's rival, if not her equal. She was a match for both athletes & lore masters. Finrod Felegund, her brother, was even able to go toe-to-toe with Sauron who barely won only because Finrod was under the doom of Mandos, as are all the Noldor. Galadriel being greater than Finrod, this she can do also. Her stature in Valinor was already noteworthy even before she left for ME. She fought valiantyl against the host of Feanor at the slaying of Alqualonde. I've never heard of Luthien doing hand-to-hand combat. For these great eldars, especially Feanor have come very near to rival a maia. Now, Luhtien has a 1/2 divine DNA but what does it mean for Galadriel who was accounted the greatest of elven women, to study in the tutelage of Melian for many years? Now Gandalf/galadriel has clearly stated that the elven rings give power according to the measure of the wearer, & it's quite obvious that Galadriel is far greater than Elrond (though he had Vilya, check out Lady G's effects). She knew Sauron's mind... not many of "wise" had this dominion over the greatest of the maiar. Nenya clearly enhanced her natural talents in many folds.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

In no way is Elrond equal to Galadriel. Peer perhaps but not her equal. Galadriel is often described as Feanor's rival, if not her equal.

And here your thesis begins to crumble... Galadriel is only described thus late in Tolkien's life, at a time when he was also saying that Celeborn was a Valinorean Teler, in contradiction of his canonical status in the LotR and Appendices. So your source is slightly suspect.

But setting that aside, how does being Feanor's equal make Galadriel Luthien's equal? As a half-Maia, Luthien is neither more a "Child of Eru" or more an Ainur, and thus would appear to be exempt from any "Greatest of the Children of Iluvatar" status claims.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

She was a match for both athletes & lore masters. Finrod Felegund, her brother, was even able to go toe-to-toe with Sauron who barely won only because Finrod was under the doom of Mandos, as are all the Noldor. Galadriel being greater than Finrod, this she can do also.

Are you forgetting that Luthien actually bested Finrod's claim not long after. She had Sauron by the throat, and if she hadn't been as kind-hearted as she was, there would never have been a Ring for Frodo to destroy...

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Her stature in Valinor was already noteworthy even before she left for ME. She fought valiantyl against the host of Feanor at the slaying of Alqualonde. I've never heard of Luthien doing hand-to-hand combat.

Hand to hand combat? That's what we base greatness and power on?

I direct your attention to Faramir's little discourse in "The Window on the West":

'Yet now, if the Rohirrim have grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with the memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both as a sport and as an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor.

T'would seem to me that you are much like these "falling" men of Gondor, putting martial skill above all else. And I would agree with Faramir that such is a sign of fading.

And one can't put it down to bravery, because bravery can be exhibited without fighting. Luthien's entire story of braving Tol Sirion and Angband is a story of courage.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For these great eldars, especially Feanor have come very near to rival a maia.

Again, I don't know that I believe this statement. Feanor was great, yes, and with a mind and spirit to rival no other, but that does not mean that his raw power was any more than that of a Maia. Nowhere does it say that at all.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Now, Luhtien has a 1/2 divine DNA but what does it mean for Galadriel who was accounted the greatest of elven women, to study in the tutelage of Melian for many years? Now Gandalf/galadriel has clearly stated that the elven rings give power according to the measure of the wearer, & it's quite obvious that Galadriel is far greater than Elrond (though he had Vilya, check out Lady G's effects). She knew Sauron's mind... not many of "wise" had this dominion over the greatest of the maiar. Nenya clearly enhanced her natural talents in many folds.

In the entire LotR, whenever Elrond and Galadriel are together, they are shown as being equals. You admit to them being peers. Well, that is tantamout to admitting that they are equals. In Gondor, on the road to the Redhorn Pass, and coming to Grey Havens, whenever they are together, they are shown as being equals. Celeborn gets no such treatment. He is shown as being his wife's equal partner, but we never see him getting the same sort of comparisons as Elrond and Gandalf (who IS a Maiar...)

As I said, Elrond and Galadriel had their fields of study. Galadriel is seen to be extremely proficient in mind-reading, but she clearly does not have great skill at healing- a skill which Elrond appears to practice with greater talent than any other in Middle-earth.

Galadriel is a great person, yes. But to put her over Luthien... that's a bit of a stretch.

I would support the view that there is a huge abyss between the powers of Galadriel and those of Luthien.

Luthien is the result of the only true union of Eru's Ainur with the hroa of Arda. She is attuned to the Living Flame in a way that no Child of Iluvatar is. And a way that even no Ainu is.

Elven "magics" or powers seem to be silent and subtle and slow. The greatest actual physical feat Finrod performed was bursting his chains; this took all of his strength. The rest of the battle between Finrod and Sauron was vocal; Finrod was defeated in mind, not in body. Elves can resist change and disease, and the Calaquendi can fend against the servants of the Enemy. They can see into the hidden places, and hide things from thought. But few examples can I think of where their exhibited powers transcend the realm of thought and communication into explosive reality. This is not to say that they cannot affect the physical world with their powers; surely, Elrond cured Frodo's wounds. But wasn't a great part of Frodo's wounding in his mind - a sickness, a sliver of despair? The old wound hurts when he feels grim. Elrond did more to his mind than to his body.

But to be of Maia-blood? There are no half-Maia other than Luthien. There are no Maia described performing the actions Luthien performed. The words she spoke rang true within the nature of the world itself. It is my personal belief that in sheer "power" in Middle-earth, she surpassed even the true Maiar. A perfect person, if you like. It appears reality changed on her whim, with such an authority did she sing. Even Melkor fell before her onslaught, for a time.

Galadriel might hold Lothlorien safe with merely her mind; she might have survived many a war and made many a weighty decision. She may have many Elven subtleties; her kindred may have defeated Maiar in battle. But this does not mean that she is any kind of match for the stature of Luthien. Luthien is completely unique, while Galadriel is ... well, simply a favoured one of the house of Finwe.

When the Great Rings enhanced the "natural powers" of their bearers, I didnt consider this to mean "natural power". I believed it meant that their actual feats of prophesy, of farsight, of defence, of preparation, would be increased in potency, by virtue of the inherent abilities of the Rings. This would not allow them to simply go off and conquer the world of darkness, as Luthien was able. (In actuality, the creation of the Rings - to my mind at least - lessened the powers of their creators. This done, of course, to improve other skills that required less power and more finesse.)

As to the actual power-levels involved... I forget the quote, but Mandos or Manwe warned Feanor that even if he were thrice what he was, he should still not hope to defeat Melkor in power and stature. Yet Luthien defeated Melkor, for a time - literally defeated him with sheer skill and strength and desperation. This is not like Hurin's defiance, who simply had the steadfast resilience to retain his will; this is not like Fingolfin's dazzling combat display, who came to the Dark Enemy bearing arms. Luthien overcame his mind. Coming to his presence a subordinate. Does this not make her more than Feanor, in stature and sheer power? Perhaps it was only because of her singular style of approach to Melkor that she won though - although I dont personally believe it I believe Luthien was blessed.

Galadriel and Co. are probably much more interesting characters because of their flaws, but Luthien definitely takes the power-biscuit. In a fashion, her powers much more resemble those of Wizards than those of Elves. She moulds the very substance of Arda itself, rather than changing the varied perceptions of Arda that sentient beings hold.

It has just occured to me that the Istari and Luthien have much in common. Luthien, the union of Ainu with Elf; the Istari were Ainur enclosed within the hroa of Men....
<Goes off to ponder this last point>

[Mithalwen]

I have to disagree with Formendacil. I do think that Galdriel was inherently more powerful than Elrond but I think the comparison is to an extent pointless because the nature of their power is so different. While Elrond is descended from Luthien, (and I am not sure that the Maia thing is so significant because Melian had to "become" an elf ot bear a child..but this has been argued elsewhere...) he is also descended from men. Also Galadriel had been born in the blessed realm and seen the light of the two trees. I adore Elrond, he is one of my favourite characters. He is certainly the most learned, and the most noble and humanitarian. Since elves have little need for healing, I regard the fact that Elrond specialised in this a manifestation of his great concern for the mortals of Middle Earth. He always does the right thing regardless of personal cost. His many sufferings have not made him bitter. He is a warrior who takes no delight in killing. He is altogether most admirable. However if push came to shove, I would take Galadriel as my champion... because as well as being older & valinor born she has got a far more cunning mind.... and sneaky is useful .

That said I think the distinctions are fine. It is certainly clear that it not all Maiar were more powerful than all Eldar. Some Elves are clearly more than matches for some Maiar... think of all those Eldar slaying balrogs. While you might argue that Saruman and Gandalf might have the edge on Elrond and Galadriel ... I doubt anyone would place Radagast ahead of them......

And ... can you really imagine Galadriel being imprisoned by anyone for a second?

I guess I find the tale of Luthien annoying because so much of her power is associated with her beauty and she uses her power for selfish means - in order to marry Beren, who to borrow a phrase is "so wet you could shoot snipe of him". And this causes death of Finrod. Needless to say I also find Arwen annoying....

[Anguirel]

Well...like many others, I like Galadriel more as a character. And in a way, I think that power is, ultimately, what is of importance, or what should be. The Vala (or whatever the feminisation is) Nessa is far more powerful than Galadriel or Luthien, for instance, but because she does nothing other than dance through some stars, and, more importantly, does not reveal to us any sort of character, we cannot regard her as much.

Luthien surpasses Galadriel in terms of deeds by some distance; but Galadriel's character is arguably Tolkien's most fascinating and complex, which Luthien's is not, apparently, as compelling. It has potential, vast potential to be framed on her deeds, but it is not fully formed.

And, as a sideline, I must defend Beren from Mith's strident charge of wetness. He seems a bit drippy because his girlfriend is far more "powerful" in terms of puissance than he is. But on his own level, his deeds are unparallelled-in the attempt far more than in the accomplishment, but that should be the nature of true heroism. I admire Beren's hopeless stand in Dorthonion, for instance, far more than the return voyage of Earendil. He shows tremendous resolve, courage, and sheer stubbornness. He is not my sort of hero at all, but I am forced to admit his greatness in moments like his defiance of Thingol.

"I have earned such names from no elf, be he King or no."

In all, I would say Beren is more powerful than Luthien in the same way that Galadriel is-the way we, the readers, accept them. This seems to me far more important than weighing quarts of Maia blood against inches of pretty hair, or some other such nonsense.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm sorry but I feel I must spoil Galadriel-fest here.

Galadriel was 'doing stuff' with Nenya. She was using it to preserve Lothlorien and doing a fair job in keeping Sauron's servants out. But that's pretty much all. She couldn't stop the Orcs from entering her land, could she? She wasn't that powerful with Nenya.

As for Glorfindel (and Aragorn) with the Nazgul, the Nazgul are only ghosts anyway. Why should a mighty Elf-lord be afraid of them? Aragorn himself was doing a pretty good job of fighting off those undead rogues! To compare the Nazgul with the Maiar (which was suggested if not explicitly set out) is laughable.

So Galadriel might well be more powerful than the Glorfindel who chased away the Nazgul, but she's still nowhere near what Luthien was, even with an Elven Ring of Power. Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar (undoubtedly the greatest Elf) and is by far greater than Galadriel ever could have been.

Mith, doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elrond's mixed ancestry (Elves and Men) makes him greater than other Elves and Men?

[daeron]

Luthien's power came from a far greater source, love. Not that I am a romance novelist or something, but I believe love gives a reason to focus the inherent power more than anything else.

But that aside, I think there should be no comparison, Luthien was half Maia. But to put the great Morgoth to sleep says something. One must remember that though Sauron was mighty in the first age, he was far greater at the end of the second age, having mastered the lores of Aule in his exile , having learnt a lot from the elves and the forging of the rings of power. Denying death to man as he did for the Nazgul, proves the point.


Also, I think the ability of elves of Middle Earth declined as the ages passed. Those of the third age were considerably weakend in mind and body, especially those who wielded the rings of power. They longed more to return to Valinor, and I believe began to consider Middle Earth as only a temporary residence. So we cannot exactly blame Galadriel for not waging a one on one combat with sauron as Luthien did.


There was also the fact that Nenya guarded lorien and her presence was required just as Melian's was to keep the girdle intact. Considering Luthien's accomplishments one does wonder whether Melian herself could not have achieved more, probably Morgoth's overthrow itself.

Galadriel could not risk exposing Lorien which was dearer to her than probably Valinor itself. She was proud and considered herself a ruler here which she would not have been in Valinor.


Melian did not overthrow Morgoth, nay not even Sauron. Fate had not decreed a combat between them. As it did not between Galadriel and Sauron. Luthien's confrontation was but a 'chance meeting as we say in Middle Earth.' Had not luthien let Sauron go, there would not have been losses of hundreds of thousands of lives in later ages. So is greater kindness an evil, one can only hope not.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I'm sorry but I feel I must spoil Galadriel-fest here.

Galadriel was 'doing stuff' with Nenya. She was using it to preserve Lothlorien and doing a fair job in keeping Sauron's servants out. But that's pretty much all. She couldn't stop the Orcs from entering her land, could she? She wasn't that powerful with Nenya.

As for Glorfindel (and Aragorn) with the Nazgul, the Nazgul are only ghosts anyway. Why should a mighty Elf-lord be afraid of them? Aragorn himself was doing a pretty good job of fighting off those undead rogues! To compare the Nazgul with the Maiar (which was suggested if not explicitly set out) is laughable.


Mith, doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elrond's mixed ancestry (Elves and Men) makes him greater than other Elves and Men?

#
Well I think you are wrong so laugh away.....
The orcs only penetrated the edges of lorien - they would not have been able to enter it's heart.

Nazgul "are only ghosts " yeah right.. the witch king just says "boo"....

And I would say that becasue Galadriel had more inherent power it was more dangerous for her to use the ring...

As for Luthien ... well say what you like, Gally is just more interesting... blondes have more fun...........