Everyone trusts in Eru?

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by davem

So, while the Music is 'as fate to all things else', it is not as fate to Men. Men can 'shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world'.

Originally Posted by davem

My own feeling is that by the end of the Third Age the Elves had surrendered to fate (ie the Will of Eru) - they knew that they could not rule the world, as they had once believed. They were 'beaten'. They couldn't change the Music, but perhaps Men could....

This opens up a can of worms - like, was Eru dependent on Men to do what had to be done? By being exempt from 'fate' were they 'wild cards' - Sauron, being bound by the Music, couldn't possibly predict what Men (& Hobbits) would do. He couldn't think outside the box, they could. Perhaps that's why the Quest is left in the hands of mortals, & the Elves simply did all they could to aid them, but in the main stayed out of the way.

Great, great points, davem. My own feeling, in connection to the Elves surrender to fate as opposed to the tendency of Men to still shape their own fate has to do with the idea of the mortality of Men. Men only had a finite number of years to live - after that, they died, leaving Middle Earth and whatever work they left undone. Meanwhile, there was a depressing push of eternity on the Elves. There was a sense of whatever they did would not really matter in the long run - in fact, they could probably always procrastinate, do it tomorrow. They were not about to die of old age, so there wasn't any urgency to get everything they wanted done. Meanwhile, Men seemed to live with the fear of death plaguing them constantly - they were forced out of any apathy they may have, knowing that if they did not live and correct the wrongs in their lives now, they may never see their desires fulfilled.

Historically, every society has had a rise and a fall. There is also a tendency for cultures on the incline to feel invincible. For most men living in the Third Age, they were beginning to see the power of the Elves wane, and their own power increase - Elves were not to rule the world, while men were still, as you said, a "wild card" in the fate of the world department. Even if Men saw an eventual end to their own power inevitable, most believed they would not live to see it, thus enjoying a certain amount of success. However, many Elves that lived through the glorious times of their own civilization were also always cursed to live in its decline as well. That's a pretty bleak prospect - being alive for both the birth and death of a beautiful time for your people. Knowing that you will live after the fall and always carry with you memories of the greatness without being able to recreate it can be an ominous thought. You may have more of a tendency to surrender, saying, "Well, eventually the end of our good fortune will come, perhaps this is the day."

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

Great, great points, davem. My own feeling, in connection to the Elves surrender to fate as opposed to the tendency of Men to still shape their own fate has to do with the idea of the mortality of Men. Men only had a finite number of years to live - after that, they died, leaving Middle Earth and whatever work they left undone. Meanwhile, there was a depressing push of eternity on the Elves. There was a sense of whatever they did would not really matter in the long run - in fact, they could probably always procrastinate, do it tomorrow. They were not about to die of old age, so there wasn't any urgency to get everything they wanted done. Meanwhile, Men seemed to live with the fear of death plaguing them constantly - they were forced out of any apathy they may have, knowing that if they did not live and correct the wrongs in their lives now, they may never see their desires fulfilled.

Procrastination is a very distinctive trait of men, one should wonder whether the firstborn share this trait, being what they are - growing wiser in mind with the ages. Would all the elves, even the greatest ones like Elrond and Cirdan give way to apathy or even lethargy simply because they know that they are immortal? One should think that with everlasting life, the great elves would have the experience and wisdom to know that procrastination and inactivity was dangerous, especially so during the TA when the strength of the elves and Dunedain are diminished and Sauron yet to be vanquished. In such desperate times, alacrity and initiative was important because with every passing moment the potency of good waned whereas evil grew stronger.

Historically, every society has had a rise and a fall. There is also a tendency for cultures on the incline to feel invincible. For most men living in the Third Age, they were beginning to see the power of the Elves wane, and their own power increase - Elves were not to rule the world, while men were still, as you said, a "wild card" in the fate of the world department. Even if Men saw an eventual end to their own power inevitable, most believed they would not live to see it, thus enjoying a certain amount of success. However, many Elves that lived through the glorious times of their own civilization were also always cursed to live in its decline as well. That's a pretty bleak prospect - being alive for both the birth and death of a beautiful time for your people. Knowing that you will live after the fall and always carry with you memories of the greatness without being able to recreate it can be an ominous thought. You may have more of a tendency to surrender, saying, "Well, eventually the end of our good fortune will come, perhaps this is the day."

Good post!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

To briefly interject, it's seemed to me that (partly from the above quote of Iluvatar)
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Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said : '...And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me[emphasis mine], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
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that Iluvatar controls the overall plan and fate of Ea and it's
inhabitants, but that within this plan a role for free will is allowed. Morgoth and Sauron revolt and have a considerable effect, but eventually are interceded with
(such as at the end of the First Age allowing the Battle of the Valar, permitting the Faithful to survive Numenor, and sending the Istari). The free peoples can, and may fail, and that would have consequences, but I'd suggest that eventually Eru would intercede to put Middle-earth "back on track" even after Sauron got the ring.
Several quotes by Gandalf (I can't look them up now) seem contradictory
but may not be.
One of them says something like, Sauron with the Ring would dominate earth as far as can be seen , but the other that he (Gandalf) would not wholly fail if anything beautiful (a flower?) survived. Which suggests, to me, that a backup plan would kick in if the quest failed (though that plan might take many years to be effective (for example, perhaps the Blue Wizards had not wholly been in vain and some of the seeds they sowed in the East would lead to revolts against Sauron?).

[davem]

I'd only say that knowing what will happen (ie Eru's omniscience) is very different from making it happen (ie Eru's omnipotence). Eru may know exactly what will happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He causes it to happen...

Which is where, I think, free will on the part of Men (at least) doesn't conflict with Eru's full knowledge of what Men will decide to do.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by davem
I'd only say that knowing what will happen (ie Eru's omniscience) is very different from making it happen (ie Eru's omnipotence). Eru may know exactly what will happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He causes it to happen...

Which is where, I think, free will on the part of Men (at least) doesn't conflict with Eru's full knowledge of what Men will decide to do.

I've heard that point before, but I don't think I agree with it. It seems to me that if someone knows what will happen, and has actually planned out what will happen, then it must happen. It doesn't make sense that free will exists when the future is certain.

Earlier davem pointed out that the Music is fate to all but men. Yet something in that quote befuddles me. The word 'beyond' seems to say 'apart', insomuch that 'beyond the Music of the Ainur' is apart from the circles of Arda. What I mean is that men follow the Music while they live in Ea, but then they pass on to somewhere else, and there have the chance to shape themselves. So 'beyond the Music of the Ainur' would mean after they die and live Ea.

Yet that same quote blows everything I just said by also stating that Men 'should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world'. I read that as it's saying in the world and apart from the world at the same time, but that doesn't make a lot of sense.