Tolkien-founder of new religion?

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by alatar

What would a religion based on Tolkien's works look like? What would the doctine and dogma be?

Well, considering that the major text would probably be The Silmarillion and therefore thinking about what that book discusses, it would probably be a fairly open religion. As Tolkien discusses in the letter I quoted before, he wanted to create stories that had a balance of story-telling/history and morality. Therefore, if you look at the text, it is not steeped with morality, but there is a definite hint at kindness and charity being desirable, while greed and betrayal are wrong. There is a definite sense of family values, of loyalty and the like. At the same time, there is no strict set of infallible rules - such as the Ten Commandments. One would more use the actions of people such as Luthien, Feanor and the like to guide them.

Originally Posted by alatar

Would it be to 'live in the ways of Iluvatar' as shown by Saint Gandalf, Saint Aragorn, Saint Frodo, etc in order to avoid being sent to the...well...Void? What would the structure be - centralized or more dispersed? Is there a 'priesthood' or some other ranking of adherents, or can anyone 'speak first.' Would there be associated rituals - note that a ritual may portray an event with some significance, and somewhere down the timeline take on a completely new or different meaning.

There does not seem to be a definite punishment for mortals who are not deemed to be "good" and "benevolent". I suppose they could be threatened with not finding their kin in the Halls of Mandos - being forced to wait for all eternity to be reunited. And stories, such as that of Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn, and Sam, would probably be used a parables - for perseverence, responsibility, humility, greatness, etc. I would think that the worship would be more dispersed - the religion strikes me to be more of a "way of life" type of religion than one with strict doctrine and guidelines for behavior. There would be respect and loyalty to one another - an acknowledgement of a shared belief, but probably not devotion outside of celebration of holidays. Judging by the types of rituals we see in the books, "holidays" would probably be more joyous events - celebrating the vanquishing of evil or the triumph of true love. Hobbits would be treasured as pure beings, so people would probably strive to be far more like them. Therefore, since I'm 5'10" (1.778 m), I'd be out of the question for worship. ;-)

Originally Posted by alatar

Would the true believer have to make some kind of journey to a volcano, and throw a ring into it ("By the grace granted by Iluvatar I cast this Ring into the Fire")? Would there be some ritual where the priest points a dagger at the heart of the supplicant, who then calls on Elbereth Gilthoniel, thereby 'turning' the power of the blade away from his/her heart?

Probably would not be a bad idea. Spiders would probably also be considered an omen of evil. But the journey would be a joyous one - full of hope and companionship.

Originally Posted by alatar

Would the Ring be a good icon?

Imagine the rappers decked out in bling - instead of a large, diamond-encrusted cross, a large platinum ring with ruby Tengwar characters on it? Wouldn't that be far classier?

Originally Posted by alatar

And of course we could have a schism (most probably over Balrog's wings).

And Legolas' hair color. The Lychmorn Tolkienites and the Lychglaur Tolkienites.

[davem]

Its something I've wondered myself -whether at soem point in the future, say a post apocalyptic world - only Tolkien's books were to be found - all other religions have been forgotten - would people latch onto them & take them as 'fact'?

Tolkien kind of plays with the idea of them being discovered to be 'real' historical accounts in his time travel stories - Lost Road & Notion Club Papers. What he didn't explore was the effect that would have had on the world. If the historical account were proven to be true, wouldn't that have given more weight to the mythical & religious accounts in the stories? What I'm asking is whether (in the 'secondary world' of those stories wouldn't he have ended up with his characters coming into conflict with established religions like Christianity?

For obvious reasons (few people have read those stories) this question hasn't arisen, but I think its interesting to speculate on the effect of tying in the mythology to the primary world - what would have been the result of the English actually adopting teh mythology he wanted to provide them with - would they have taken it as a challenge to Christianity, & if not, how would they have tied it in with Christianity?

The other interesting area of exploration is Tolkien's own use of his mythology & the way he related it to the primary world - in the letters he refers to certain people as 'Orcs' & seems to use 'Sauron' interchangeably with Satan. Its as if his mythology became conflated in his mind with his Catholicism. Did that affect his understanding of his religion, or did his religion affect his understanding of his mythology?

Of course, the latter is assumed to be the case, but was there some kind of 'feedback' loop, so that, in fact he had produced a 'third' belief for himself, made up of a combination of his own creation & his avowed religion? And would that 'Third Way' work for anyone else?

[daeron]

Turgon, the Bible says the earth is less than 10.000 years old. We have fossil evidence dating to older times. Then what geographic evidinces are you talking about.

Of courses there have been floods all over the world, and maybe ice age receding might be a common flood witnessed worldwide, but people have lived through (not only Noah), and can't they frame fictional stories basing upon such natural calmities. Can't fictional work be designed on history and geography to make it sound true. People have always wanted some supernatural, all powerful being to blame things on, to relieve themselves and they devised God. Some people took advantage and procaimed themselves heads (may not be selfishly, but because they believed more than others).

Our religious scriptures have had thousands of years to be formulated, to achieve the final completed and revised "edition". Just think, what will happen to Tolkien's works a couple of millenia later. Might be the new Bible. Someone can revise them, rewrite them adding "ideal life preachings", maybe add a New Testament after a thousand years basing on someone who considers himself a prophet of Eru. At present you might not believe in the religion , but think 2000 years down the line. You are used to your religion, but think how many religions there are in the world and how many have passed out or given way to new ones.

Why can't people accept Jesus as a normal human being who accomplished all that he did just by the purity of his heart and his will for good? That should motivate people to lead better lives a lot more than when someone gives up all actions to God. I believe Jesus believed in God and used him as the instument of his preachings rather than the other way round. Mind you , I am not against Jesus, I think such people are great and rare but I think it is a lot more comforting knowing he was human.

Sorry if I got into religion bashing and hurt your feelings. But bad habits die hard.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Its something I've wondered myself -whether at soem point in the future, say a post apocalyptic world - only Tolkien's books were to be found - all other religions have been forgotten - would people latch onto them & take them as 'fact'?

They do seem to have the proper structure for such a use, don't they?

As I was reading through this thread (quickly, as I must again leave soon...), I got the distinct impression that religions were the result of man's elaboration on a theme, a need to add oneself and one's current situation to the mix of ancient lore in order to validate one's own place in the universe. In merchant terms, this might be the same effect as a "good idea" taken by a large firm and marketed to the masses for profit. I hate to make such a comparison, but it is one that came to mind (my apologies for offending anyone with above statement). But it does seem that Man cannot leave anything alone. He has to add things and elaborate on things and ideas. It is in his nature. Whether by word of mouth over a period of centuries or by word of mouth over a period of weeks when a new fad hits the airwaves, it seems that a percentage of people will always "pick up on it" and add to it. Successful TV series spawn "spinoffs," just as there have been many "knock-off" Lord of the Rings inspired fiction and perhaps religion as well. It just seems to be a part of human nature.

That won't stop me from forming my own ideas about Tolkien's works with relation to my own life--although I am a hobbit, I am also human ( )! Now, about those UFO's....

Cheers!
Lyta

[Formendacil]

daeron- check your private messages.

Personally, I don't see any likelihood that the Lord of the Rings will ever be turned into a religion. Nor COULD it ever have been in the past, in my opinion, since it could not have been written by any other than a 20th century man with Tolkien's learning and background. Therefore, it could not have existed in a more "primitive" time (primitive technology does not equal a primitive people), therefore it could not have started a religion.

~Bemused,

Formendacil~

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Therefore, it could not have existed in a more "primitive" time (primitive technology does not equal a primitive people), therefore it could not have started a religion.

Yet one of Tolkien's motivations was not simply to 'invent' a new mythology, but to 'recreate' what had been (see Shippey's essay in Tolkien Studies 1 for example). So, he was attempting to reconstruct what our ancestors had once believed. From that perspective he was recreating (as best he could) a once existing religion/belief system. Maybe he was more accurate than he could have hoped - who knows? And if people had once believed something more or less like his creation, why might they not do so again - in the 'right' circumstances? Certainly, the beliefs of many modern 'Pagans' is very like what we find in Tolkien's work, & while, in the west, Christianity is in decline (apart from fundamentalist versions of traditional religions) Paganism/the 'New Age movement is growing apace.

Maybe Tolkien's mythology won't be adopted by our descendants 'lock, stock & barrel', but its quite possible that something quite similar will be by a great many of them, As I say, its already happening....

Now, I'm not saying I approve of that, but I do think its interesting that its happening.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

Maybe Tolkien's mythology won't be adopted by our descendants 'lock, stock & barrel', but its quite possible that something quite similar will be by a great many of them, As I say, its already happening....

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Just what would Gandalf do?