Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Gurthang]

Maybe this has been brought up before; I haven't had time to read it all, so tell me if I'm repeating someone.

Gandalf could have defeated the WK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the prophecy not say that the Witch-King will not be killed by a living men. If that is so, then Gandalf could not have destroyed him, but he could have beaten him and driven him back. If Gandalf did that, I would count that as defeating the WK, if not for good.

But there is no way to tell that he would have defeated him. He is a Maia, but in physical form. Isildur beat Sauron while Sauron was physical. But was the Witch-King stronger than Isildur? He would have to be to defeat Gandalf, an incarnate Maia. Yet the WK was defeated by Eowyn and Merry. It's so confusing.

Basically, I'm saying he could have, not would have.

Essex, I really like what you said earlier about smaller, weaker people beating the bigger, stronger people. And I can easily see the examples thoughout Tolkien's works.

1. Bard beat Smaug.
2. Gandalf beat the Balrog. (Gandalf might not be weaker, but the Balrog is definitely bigger!)
3. Gondor/Rohan beat Mordor's army.
4. Sam beats Shelob.
5. Frodo (indirectly) beats Sauron.
6. Eowyn/Merry beat the Witch-King.

It's a very nice theme to have, and I'm glad you pointed it out.

[Essex]

I showed you proof based on what Tolkien wrote, yet you choose to ignore it.

read it, was interested by it, but it was explaining gandalf's fight with the balrog, and not the witch king. circumstantial evidence.

I actually like this point, and the point Mansun states about the balrog encounter. Gandalf decided not to fight the balrog there and then. it could be a case that he didn't want the other members of the fellowship dragged into the fight, (at least aragorn and boromir who stood by him), as they could well of got killed.

but your next point (and I did miss this first time around, and is what I've been saying for the past god knows how long since this thread started) is, and I quite you:

allowed himself to be defeated by the Balrog, which, in turn, indicates that he had the latent power to defeat the Balrog decisively.

YES HE PROBABLY DID HAVE THE LATENT POWER TO DEFEAT THE BALROG AND THE WITCH KING BUT HE WAS FORBIDDEN TO USE THIS POWER!!!!!!!

Therefore he was not certain to beat the Witch King, and could also have been defeated, as mentioned in the Istari section of Unfinished Tales I've quoted above.

[Essex]

Sorry, double posting again

I understand the saccharine, comforting ideal you impose upon Tolkien's work.

So what do you take from tolkien's work? I take a bittersweet feeling, not a saccharine, alls well feeling. Many of the characters Lost a lot. I've already let my thoughts on this be known in other threads. But to say a view that the weak defeat the strong is saccharine?

[narfforc]

My friends, I think in the end you will all have to agree to disagree, this argument is going round in circles, all sides will not give ground, and though there are good points on either side, they are not being accepted.

[The Only Real Estel]

Wasn't the book Balrog (as opposed to everything PJ) just over "man-sized?" Would this make him at most a little taller than Gandalf?

From The Fellowship of the Ring:

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it...

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darknesss grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm"

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

[*]Gandalf beat the Balrog. (Gandalf might not be weaker, but the Balrog is definitely bigger!)

Wasn't the book Balrog (as opposed to everything PJ) just over "man-sized?" Would this make him at most a little taller than Gandalf?

Of course it's well known that 'wings' always gives the appearance of greater stature...