The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[Ar-Pharazon]

A question that has boggled the greatest minds in philosophy and science. Are we here to play a role or do we just take up space (especially on BD )

I liked Davem's quote that men were allowed to build their own roads as opposed to just following them. It seems that Tolkien wrote Eru as a being of infinity where nothing was beyond him and all beings were created by him or as a result of him. So did this road that Davem and the others spoke of start here. He created the Valar/Gods and the greatest of them were Manwe and Melkor/Morgoth. Manwe seemed to represent all that was good (one path) and Melkor represented all that was evil (a split in the path). Manwe was given a land and world for him to govern while Melkor took a land for his own and built it to his designs.

So the question comes up are the people of middle earth free from predestination. Obviously they are not, fate seems to play a big role in the books, as many characters meet their fates befitting their lives and choices. In the case of Saruman, Gandalf, Radagsat(SP) and the other two Istari they were sent to contest the will of Sauron. Saruman travelled to the blackland with the two wizards and only he returned, he studied his enemy intently only to instead hate him, become enamored in his plands and view him rather as a competitor or rival. In his attempt to grab power he inadvertently helps the fall of Sauron (as discussed above)l Radagast seems to go all lonely animal guy and lives with the lesser creature but aids by giving both Sauron and Gandalf the help with the lesser creatures that indirectly help topple Sauron. While Gandalf seems to move the wills of those who were destined to become major role players in the down fall of Sauron.

It comes to me that all the things of middle earth are subject to Eru's will for they were created of his will. The music that Eru created is the flow of existence and only Eru seems to be the conductor and each person has a part to play in his orchestra.

EZ

[Lhunardawen]

Taking on davem's road comparison...each being bound by the Music has the freedom to choose a fork in the road, but Men are free to build their own roads. But in the end, they will realize that Eru has designed the whole terrain in a manner that they could never have comprehended; whichever paths they chose, they ended up right where Eru wants them to.

Or with Formendacil's play metaphor...the Music-bound people act as the Music sways them, Men do improvizations and affect the whole plot, as well as the former's acting. But once the curtain falls and they all step back to watch how the play went, they will see that Eru has created such a versatile script that though the characters deviate, the ending will be as Eru originally wrote it.

In some cases a road-builder might fall off a cliff or an actor off the stage, but these instances are consequences of their own choices (or temporary blindness ). Eru never meant anyone to be hurt. But being a perfect gentleman, he lets them go or act the way they choose, yet allows them to find out what is beyond the paths they forged, or what their action's repercussions on the story or on their fellow actors are.

Now this brings me to think, is the Men's freedom from the Music a reason for their greater divisiveness and, very loosely, their gullibility as opposed to the Elves? Is this why they are much easier to sway to the side of evil or why they seem to have more 'branches'? Because they have more roads to 'choose from' or more roles to 'assume'?

[HerenIstarion]

I always argued (and this time, and this time and this time too) that Men's freedom is not different from that of other beings of free will while men are alive, their special kind of freedom being expressed in them 'leaving the confines of the world' upon their death, as opposed to Valar/Maiar/Elves who are 'bound within confines of the world' while it lasts

So, it's always choice of the fork of the road for the walker, and choice of play in accord with conduct or in disaccord with it for the musician in each respective analogy.

Yes/No, Do/Don't.

Traditioanlly, consider the following:

'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house'

[Lhunardawen]

Point taken, HI.

[burrahobbit]

Roads and stuff is all fine and dandy, but it really doesn't have anything to do with anything Saruman ever did, except maybe that time he met up with all the folks on his way to the Shire. I will try to make the situation as plain as I can. Saruman is an Ainu. That means he created the world. He made it with his singing. Specifically, he made all of the parts concerning him with his singing. While he lived in God's house he could sing and make decisions to his heart's content (that is just a metaphor, Ainur don't actually have hearts usually). While he was singing he generally followed (or rebelled from) the direction of God, so that while the particulars of what was going on were determined by him, the overall ebb and flow was guided by the hand of God. It is important to keep in mind that the dischord also followed a greater theme that nobody even realized was happening. All of that being said and taken into account (please take it into account before you read anymore), think of his singing as though he were writing a script of his future performance, when he left God's house and came into the world he had to go by that script until the end of it. The thing that most people don't realize about Angels, and it is a weird thing to think about, I admit, is that they are amazingly forgetful. So even though he sang all kinds of stuff he didnt remember most of it, and he wasn't paying attention to anybody else anyway. TO BE CONSCISE, SARUMAN HAD FREE WILL AT FIRST, BUT THAT STOPPED PRETTY QUICK. That is in caps because I want people to notice it more. The next part is too. GOD DOES WHAT HE WANTS AND DOESN'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO YOU. If you do not think it is a good idea for there to be naughty stuff in the world then that is too bad, because God thinks that it is awesome.

[davem]

[QUOTE=HerenIstarion]I always argued (and this time, and this time and this time too) that Men's freedom is not different from that of other beings of free will while men are alive, their special kind of freedom being expressed in them 'leaving the confines of the world' upon their death, as opposed to Valar/Maiar/Elves who are 'bound within confines of the world' while it lasts
QUOTE]

But in Ainulindale it clearly states;

Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Men can shape their life, amid the powers & chances of the world - not beyond or outside the world but within it.

[HerenIstarion]

davem, strong in arms you are, no doubt

But ther is also beyond in there, isn't it?

As far as I see, it may be one of the two

1. Beyond - after the point the Vision ceased, thence the Valar have no knowledge (i.e. - after Fading of the Elves and as the Rule of Men begins)
2. Beyond - outside of the Music. But the Music is the pattern along which the whole World is shaped, so beyond the world would mean: A. Void B. Halls of Eru C. Whatever else there may be which we know not about.

I hold to option 2 (weak point of option 1 - though Vision ceased before the completion of the Music, the Music itself contains all the history of the world. But when do men leave the world? When they die. Hence, reasoning: the special kind of freedom for men is their death.

***

burra,

TO BE CONSCISE, SARUMAN HAD FREE WILL AT FIRST, BUT THAT STOPPED PRETTY QUICK

We know not when the 'pretty quick' part of it came in. After all, Gandalf's bearing implies Saruman is still free in his choice, and may still chose to come over from the 'dark side' pretty late into the Music.


***

I believe I've found just another analogy to conciliate Predestination/Fate with Free Will:

Imagine elementary particles - movement of each individual particle is unpredictable (Free Will), but all particles combined in a lump of given matter, cancel each other out so lump of matter remains stable and solid (Fate)

[Gurthang]

Yes, I very much agree with Heren on this. The above quote by davem says 'amid the... world' but 'beyond the Music'.

Perhaps it is like davem's road theory, but slightly different. Elves, Valar, Maiar, and all others have to follow the points that Eru has designed. They may take different paths to reach those points, but they still go to those places. Men are exactly the same in that respect. They have choices to make, forks to choose, but still come out where Eru planned. That would be 'amid the powers and chances of the world'.

But the choices they make affect the hereafter. Each fork they choose is presumably either good or bad. Which one they choose will make them more good or more bad. Once they die, those choices that they make will determine what happens to them. They would at that time be outside the Music and would have chosen their own path beyond what the Valar sang. This would explain the 'shape their life,..., beyond the Music of the Ainur'.

So men live exactly the same as all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, only that the choices they make affect their afterlife.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

So men live exactly the same as all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, only that the choices they make affect their afterlife.

But if Men are in exactly the same position as everyone else, why mention Men's freedom at all?

they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;

This, which I keep repeating, I know, says something specific about Men 'amid the powers & chances of the world' - not outside it. If Men's power to shape their fate within the world is the same as that of Valar, Maiar & Elves, then why mention it?

So men live exactly the same as all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, only that the choices they make affect their afterlife.

So aren't Elves & Ainur also judged on the choices they make in life - or are they simply 'robots'?

As regards Saruman - if he was bound by his decisions made during the Music why would Gandalf make such an effort to get him to repent at Isengard? Gandalf clearly believes that Saruman has the ablity to make choices about what road he would take, though not about the 'events' he has to experience - like dying in the Shire perhaps.

Unless you believe that Gandalf also was bound by what he had 'sung' in the Music & had no free will either.

This idea that everything - right down to the moral choices individuals made, even the thoughts they thought - was fixed, makes the whole story a nonsense, because nothing anyone did was a result of free will, & then how can anyone be held accountable after their death.

What I'm suggesting is that Valar, Maiar & Elves have absolute moral freedom to make choicesabout how they live, but not about what they will experience - the Noldor will return to Middle-earth, & Feanor will die there in the way he did - but the way they come to those experiences will be a result of their own freely willed choices - hence they can be held accountable for their actions after they die. Men, on the other hand, are not (because they are not bound to the world in the same way) destined to have those pre-ordained experiences - they have both freedom of thought - as all other races have - & also the freedom to choose what experiences they will have, what events they will be caught up in - as Aragorn could choose whether to go on the paths of the Dead.

But did Legolas have that choice? Was it in the Music that he would go that way? If so, what would he have done of Aragorn had chosen not to go that way? And what about Elladan & Ellrohir? Did the half-elven have the freedom of Men or were they bound by the Music to go?

I think its pushing it to suggest that Men's freedom only comes into play after they die, because we don't know what, or even if anything at all, happens to Men after death. I think if you just read that sentence its plain that its refering to Men's freedom of action within the world, & that 'beyond' in that context doesn't mean beyond/outside Arda, but beyond/outside the plan the Music laid out by the Music:

shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur Which is as fate to all things else

If we take this to mean that Men's freedom lies only beyond the world (as opposed to beyond the plan but within the world) then we're saying that Valar, Maiar & Elves have no freedom either during life or after death. They are 'robots' both within Arda & outside it, while Men are only 'robots' while they are in the world.