The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[burrahobbit]

[quuote]As an Elf/Valar/Maiar you have moral freedom to the extent that you may not be able to choose what you do but you can choose how you do it.[/quote]

That doesn't make any kind of sense. I'm going back to my Feanor as pacifist argument.

Eru did not say that 'none may change the Music' - He said 'none may change the Music in My despite'. Men's 'gift' is the freedom to change the Music - within the bounds set by Eru - & those 'bounds' are not the Music per se, but the bounds He sets.

So basically what you are saying is that Eru determines exactly what people can or can't do?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

That doesn't make any kind of sense. I'm going back to my Feanor as pacifist argument.

Why not? Feanor cannot choose to but to go back to Arda, but he can choose whether to go back as a rebel, or as a servant of the Valar - he could even be dragged back against his will. He can't alter the Music, but he can choose how much in harmony he is with it...

So basically what you are saying is that Eru determines exactly what people can or can't do?

Absolutely not. Eru does not determine exactly what people can or can't do. He will permit men to alter the Music to a certain degree, but will set bounds on those changes. He's a bit like a 'mod' - he doesn't determine what posters can or can't say, in the sense that he dictates what they say, but he makes sure they don't overstep the line - ie, He permits Isildur to bind the spirits of the Oathbreakers within Arda till they have fulfilled their oath, but He doesn't permit the Numenoreans to assail Valinor...

Where it gets interesting is that, because Men may alter the Music (with Eru's consent) then if Men do alter it, & Valar, Maiar & Elves are bound by it, Men are actually more 'powerful' than they are. Their 'freedom' would be limited not simply by the original Music, but by the (Eru permitted) changes introduced into the Music by Men....

[burrahobbit]

Where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

:
Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.(Ainulindale)

:
But Illuvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and ie said, These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Illuvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. (Of the Beginning of Days)

Quod erat demonstrandum?

[burrahobbit]

So, bearing those quotes in mind, where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music? And what exactly does that have to do with Saruman?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

So, bearing those quotes in mind, where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

If the Music was fixed before the creation of Arda & could not be changed, why create it at all? If there is no freedom to alter the Music the whole thing becomes a pointless exercise. The Music is actually a 'living' process - it changes, alters, as it must because otherwise Arda has no purpose, everyone in it is a robot, & so no-one can be held accountable, because no-one is free to act. Men's freedom actually liberates all the races to an extent, by changing the Music & so changing the fate of all the others.

Or, in short, why else would Tolkien mention Men's freedom to alter the Music if it never happened? Man's free will was central to Tolkien's thinking, both as a writer & as a man - its a central tenet of his faith. Men & Elves were not part of the Music - they sprang from the mind of Illuvatar alone, & so must have had some purpose which was not included in the Music as originally sung. The Elves were made to live 'eternally' within Arda & so were bound to its fate, Men were not so bound & that's why they die - because in them fea & hroa are not one - ie death is one with the gift of mortality - the one is a corollary of the other.

Given the statements I quoted, what makes you think they didn't alter the Music?

Or if you're simply asking where I got the idea from - it was from reading Flieger's Splintered Light, wherein she discusses this idea in depth...

What it has to do with Saruman is that Saruman, being a Maiar, had no option but to play the part assigned to him by 'fate' (ie the Music), but he had the freedom to choose how he would do the things he had to do. But the Music was changed by Men's freedom of choice & action - for instance by the choice of Isildur to take rather than destroy the Ring.....

[burrahobbit]

why else would Tolkien mention Men's freedom to alter the Music if it never happened?

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually ever do that.

Given the statements I quoted, what makes you think they didn't alter the Music?

Because they don't have anything to do with that? There is some amount of difference between living beyond somthing and changing it to suit your needs. How exactly does a person go about changing a performance that he wasn't at? Even if he was at it, how exactly would he change the performances of all of the other people playing for themselves? The first question is more important, think about it more.