Elendil's Sword and Sauron's Ring

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've been looking through some threads and consensus seems to be that 'we cannot know for sure'. Tolkien didn't give a detailed analysis of the Battle so we are left speculating. I guess you could argue for both ideas: Isildur either cut off the finger after Sauron had perished or as he was injured and fallen.

But to answer the original question, you could definitely stick a sword through him! Whether you were powerful or brave enough is another matter entirely.

[Firefoot]

From "The Council of Elrond":

"I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, wehere we had the mastery: for the spear of Gil-galad and the Sword fo Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own." -Elrond

Sauron killed Elendil and Gil-galad, but at the same time they overthrew Sauron - "killing" him, per se. So Sauron was already overthrown by the time Isildur cut off ring and finger.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What would Elrond know....

Seriously though, that's what seems righteous to me Firefoot, but the way it's written in Of the Rings of Power in The Silmarillion might make it seem that it was the severing of the finger which killed.

Isildur took the Ring, and then Sauron was vanquished.

As much as I'd love a detailed call of the 'match' it's probably not going to happen now. Barring any time-travel.

[drigel]

I agree Eomer - it is muddled as to what actually happened. It seemed (to me)the ultimate contest took place without their weapons. The appendixes left me the impression for the longest time that it was a wrestling match. ".....Sauron was thrown down..", and ".....his body was burned by the heat (of Sauron).."

Nothing left to do after your spear and sword break I suppose. Elendil and Gil-Galad looking at each other: "OK - you take him high and I take him low.."

Cowboy up and throw down in the dust of Gorgoroth

[Formendacil]

Here's my take...

Sauron was still somewhat "weak" from getting drowned in Numenor. Not drowned as in "dead", but drowned in that he needed to recreate a totally new body- which we are told (I seem to recall) is a rather draining experience. It's only about a hundred years later, a blink of an eye for a Maia, and so Sauron is still not at his full power.

Neither is his army, which is why Gil-galad and Elendil are able to smash through with the Last Alliance, and make it right up to him, face-to-face, and take him on. Still not at his full power, and vulnerable to weapons in his physical form (think Glorfindel and the Balrog), Sauron is stabbed/sliced by the two High Kings, thereby killing his weaker physical body. This initiates a shutdown as his body "explodes", which kills Elendil and Gil-galad in the process (doesn't it say that Gil-galad was killed by the heat of Sauron's hand somewhere...). Elendil falls down on Narsil, breaking it.

So Elendil is dead, Gil-galad is dead, and Sauron's body is vanquished, leaving him extremely vulnerable. It is at this time that Isildur comes up. He sees his father dead, and the hot, dead body of Sauron. He takes the hilt-shard of Narsil, and cuts off Sauron's ringfinger as a sign of victory, and takes the Ring for himself. Then Elrond and Cirdan show up and try to talk him into throwing it away, etc, etc.

Now, this is just my understanding/theory as to how it all happened. I may as well toss it out, and see what happens.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've seen numerous references to the slaying of Gil-Galad being due to the heat of Sauron's hand. Could anyone tell us where that's from?

(If it's from the Sil and I've missed it I'll just die of embarrassment.. . )

[Lalwendë]

Maybe when Gandalf warns Aragorn that he cannot harm Sauron through his swordsmanship he is saying more to him than simply telling him it is not advisable. Aragorn is possibly very aware of his own fighting abilities, while Gandalf is keenly aware that Sauron is a very different foe to another Man or an Orc; he is warning Aragorn that sheer swordsmanship is not enough to rid Middle earth of this particular foe, certainly this time around. I would imagine that even if someone were able to get close enough to Sauron to even try to put a blade through him, it might be rather like trying to cut fire.

In addition, it might be that as Narsil was broken, when it was reforged as Anduril it effectively became a different weapon? If it was 'wound about with spells' like the Barrow-blades, would those spells also have been broken when it fell beneath Elendil? To me, it seems that Isildur used Narsil on Sauron after his body had fallen, and that his act was not the act which destroyed Sauron's physical form.

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I've seen numerous references to the slaying of Gil-Galad being due to the heat of Sauron's hand. Could anyone tell us where that's from?

(If it's from the Sil and I've missed it I'll just die of embarrassment.. . )

I just stumbled upon the answer to your question by accident. It's in LotR, during the Council of Elrond, in Isildur's scroll:

"The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;"

It's just slipped in there - no wonder I haven't seen it before.

And I understand now how you can read the passages in the CoE and the Sil otherwise... I was in a hurry when I wrote my last post. I still think that's how it happened though.

Luthien defeated Sauron without any sword.

Luthien was also half-Maia and lived in the Elder Days. She also had certain aids: her cloak of drowsiness, and Huan's help - Huan was probably more helpful than a sword could have been.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

From "The Council of Elrond": Sauron killed Elendil and Gil-galad, but at the same time they overthrew Sauron - "killing" him, per se. So Sauron was already overthrown by the time Isildur cut off ring and finger.

Firefoot, that depends on your interpretation of whether Sauron was killed, or that Mordor, and hence the Dark Lord, was just defeated (overthrown). We don't have enough to go on to be sure. Sauron was probably subjected to being attacked by lord after lord, slaying them all but sustaining injury, until he at last became physically weaker, and then finally caved in to Isildur, who accurately landed a blow to remove the large finger (assuming that Sauron was a good deal bigger than a normal man).

That said, how did the likes of Elendil even have the courage to confront him? If Sauron landed a mighty blow to them, they would be sent yards into the air!Mentally he would be too much I would have thought, hence a lucky blow by Isildur might come into the equation.

However, as Tolkein put it, Isildur took the Ring from Sauron as though he himself had not been involved in a titanic battle with the Dark Lord. So its might appear that Sauron could well have been on the verge of dying or already dead just before the Ring was taken, although for me that seems very hard to imagine whilst he still had the Ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Did Sauron increase his power by making the Ring? It was a ploy to ensnare the other races and it didn't quite work. So Sauron with Ring was no more powerful than he would have been if he had never made the Ring. A powerful Maia. And like Osse says, Melkor - a being far more powerful than Sauron - was given a very decent fight by Fingolfin, an Elf.

So why couldn't Sauron, and his physical body, be subject to a mauling by Gil-Galad and Elendil, a powerful Elf and a powerful Man, even with the Ring of Power? It doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Did Sauron increase his power by making the Ring? It was a ploy to ensnare the other races and it didn't quite work. So Sauron with Ring was no more powerful than he would have been if he had never made the Ring. A powerful Maia. And like Osse says, Melkor - a being far more powerful than Sauron - was given a very decent fight by Fingolfin, an Elf.

So why couldn't Sauron, and his physical body, be subject to a mauling by Gil-Galad and Elendil, a powerful Elf and a powerful Man, even with the Ring of Power? It doesn't seem too far-fetched.

What did the former have in them that the likes of Aragorn and Gandalf did not in the war against Sauron, who could not face him even without the Ring?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gil-Galad and Elendil were much mightier than 'Gorn, and Gandalf was restricted in his power, and was not allowed to fight Sauron anyway.

What about Glorfindel? Gandalf gave the impression that even the elf-lord did not have it in him to face all the Nine Nazgul at a time, nor be able to storm the Dark Tower (i.e. take on Sauron). Both Gandalf and Elrond admitted that there was nobody on ME that could challenge Sauron if he was to come at the end.