Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[davem]

All have freedom of thought but only Men have freedom of action. (Eru excepted, of course).

[Formendacil]

Of course there is free will...

Even if no one else has free will, Men do. Men are clearly granted this by Eru in the Ainulindale, the power to shape their fates amid the workings of the world.

I would say that the Elves have free will as well. Precisely HOW this is supposed to relate to destiny, I have no idea, but to my mind, it appears that the Elves MUST have free will.

As my prime example, I present Feanor. Feanor appears to have chosen, very definitely and angrily, to rebel against the Valar, lead his people to death and exile, and then betray most of them in the process.

Now, one COULD make the argument that Feanor was just doing was he was foresaid to do, but why then is he doomed to remain in Mandos- forever, when all other Elves are let go later? If he is doing what he is "destined", and thus has no free will, then he should not be punished, because he has no control in the matter. Not unlike the insanity plea, I suppose.

So Elves have free will. I have no idea how that works with fate, but that isn't the central issue on this thread.

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

So yes, Free Will exists. How it works, I am not sure...

[Bêthberry]

It's not free, Fordim. It comes at great cost. Just ask Frodo and Sam.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Good heavens, I'm the token dissenter.

Remember Gandalf's words to Frodo about Bilbo being "meant" to find the Ring, and that it would mean that Frodo is "meant" to have it also?

You can argue that Frodo had the choice any time to get rid of the Ring and I'll agree with you, but it was not in his character to do so. Even though he *could* get rid of the Ring, the Powers that got it to him knew that he wouldn't, which pretty much gets rid of the idea that he might have tossed it away.

Sam had the "free will" to leave Frodo, but his love and promise ensured that he never would.

Eowyn's "free will" got her to the place where the Witch King was during the battle, allowing her to kill him, but there was a prophecy made (my thoughts on prophecies are already sketchy) which was then fulfilled.

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Yes because the person can fail. The prophesy can fail to come about. As you said Sam wouldn't leave Frodo because of his love for him but the point is that he could leave him, as you stated. This of course is free will. Simply because Frodo was meant to receive the ring didn't make it so he had to fulfill the task. He had his agency to turn back at anytime he wanted. And in fact he did at the very end. He exercised his free will to take the ring as his own.

[alatar]

Not sure how this fits into the Tolkien world, but I'll throw this in. Presumably the whole universe is governed by 'laws.' Planets, stars and solar systems just don't run around willy-nilly; their behavior is governed by laws like gravity etc. There were all of those laws that Newton 'passed' that proscribed what an object (whether at rest or in motion) can or cannot do.

Organisms on this big ball of rock on which we live are also governed by laws. One might say that it's all in the genes, and that when you make a choice, well, you are acting not as a free agent but as a product of what is encoded in your DNA in response to something in your immediate environment.

I like reading, especially Tolkien. My biological father and eldest brother are also avid readers (yet not Tolkien fans), and as I was not raised by said parent...it could be genetic. I was exposed to Tolkien via the school library whereas my father and brother weren't (or most likely they too would have read Tolkien).

Then there are other laws that govern one's behavior. Surely you felt the urge now and again to scream, "PJ is God!" while swinging a homemade replica of Gandalf's staff around in the air in a crowded movie theater while watching LOTR, but there are social mores and also legal issues to consider that (hopefully) governed and possibly restrained your behavior.

I think that Isaac Asimov wrote in the Foundation trilogy scifi novels that societies' actions could be predicted and therefore were deterministic. All that you needed were large enough numbers and you could use math/statistics to determine what people (not individuals) would do. My guess is that once you gather some priors on persons, you then could determine what 'choice' they would make. Isn't this what marketing firms do when they gather information?

At the quantum level, however, the universe isn't deterministic but probabilistic, meaning that you can't know exactly what will occur but can make some really good guesses.

So, whether it's Newtonian physical laws, my genes, my environment or simply the most probable action, I just had to post.

Anyway, assuming the Middle Earth world is similar to what I have above, then I would say that chances are if Frodo had not taken the Ring, then maybe we would have seen "Fatty Lives" spray-painted in American subways. Maybe if Eowyn would have been lost in the initial charge of the Rohirrim, we might have had a site praising Ioreth or her sister. If Frodo or Eowyn would have fallen, then either someone would have jumped into their places or we would not have had the chance to read LOTR as Sauron would control all printing presses and so we'd be stuck reading Robert Jordan of "Wheel of Time"...ahhh...fame.

Eru was merciful.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Aw, I wanted a Favourite Hobbit poll.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

What makes me question the idea of Elvish freedom of action is their constant looking backwards. Even Feanor's rebellion is inspired by this:

“In Cuivienen sweet was the water under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk”

He is looking backwards, not forwards. He doesn't seek change to make things different - he doesn't want to go forward into the future, but back to the past. all his desire is to make things as they were. His freedom of thought is limited to working out the best way to undo the changes that have occurred. the Valar, in the same way, only seek to make mainfest the Music. None of them are looking to make new things. They don't look to the future in the way that Men do, & this is clearly because they can't think in the way Men do. Whether Men realise it or not, they have a freedom to act beyond the Music & the constraints it lays on all others.

Elves, Valar & Maiar can only think within certain limits - psychological as well as physical limits. The Music constrains not simply what they may do, but even what they can think about. Their desire to 'embalm' the world around them is ultimately a desire to have things a certain way - the way the Music says it should be. the 'wrongness' in the world that they percieve is its veering from the archetype. They desire only to stop change, & change is mainly instigated by Men.....

[Mithalwen]

I would say that Men have more freewill than anyone else because of the Gift of Iluvatar to Men. For onceI have the book (I have not forgotten that when werewolves and RPG commitments allow, and I have a death wish, I have to explain my loathing of Luthien )

Sil. "Of the beginning of days" "He (Iluvatar) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and have no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;"

So Men get cadenzas the rest follow the score. No wonder the elves are passive by the end of the third age.....