Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[alatar]

Not sure how this fits into the Tolkien world, but I'll throw this in. Presumably the whole universe is governed by 'laws.' Planets, stars and solar systems just don't run around willy-nilly; their behavior is governed by laws like gravity etc. There were all of those laws that Newton 'passed' that proscribed what an object (whether at rest or in motion) can or cannot do.

Organisms on this big ball of rock on which we live are also governed by laws. One might say that it's all in the genes, and that when you make a choice, well, you are acting not as a free agent but as a product of what is encoded in your DNA in response to something in your immediate environment.

I like reading, especially Tolkien. My biological father and eldest brother are also avid readers (yet not Tolkien fans), and as I was not raised by said parent...it could be genetic. I was exposed to Tolkien via the school library whereas my father and brother weren't (or most likely they too would have read Tolkien).

Then there are other laws that govern one's behavior. Surely you felt the urge now and again to scream, "PJ is God!" while swinging a homemade replica of Gandalf's staff around in the air in a crowded movie theater while watching LOTR, but there are social mores and also legal issues to consider that (hopefully) governed and possibly restrained your behavior.

I think that Isaac Asimov wrote in the Foundation trilogy scifi novels that societies' actions could be predicted and therefore were deterministic. All that you needed were large enough numbers and you could use math/statistics to determine what people (not individuals) would do. My guess is that once you gather some priors on persons, you then could determine what 'choice' they would make. Isn't this what marketing firms do when they gather information?

At the quantum level, however, the universe isn't deterministic but probabilistic, meaning that you can't know exactly what will occur but can make some really good guesses.

So, whether it's Newtonian physical laws, my genes, my environment or simply the most probable action, I just had to post.

Anyway, assuming the Middle Earth world is similar to what I have above, then I would say that chances are if Frodo had not taken the Ring, then maybe we would have seen "Fatty Lives" spray-painted in American subways. Maybe if Eowyn would have been lost in the initial charge of the Rohirrim, we might have had a site praising Ioreth or her sister. If Frodo or Eowyn would have fallen, then either someone would have jumped into their places or we would not have had the chance to read LOTR as Sauron would control all printing presses and so we'd be stuck reading Robert Jordan of "Wheel of Time"...ahhh...fame.

Eru was merciful.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Aw, I wanted a Favourite Hobbit poll.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

What makes me question the idea of Elvish freedom of action is their constant looking backwards. Even Feanor's rebellion is inspired by this:

“In Cuivienen sweet was the water under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk”

He is looking backwards, not forwards. He doesn't seek change to make things different - he doesn't want to go forward into the future, but back to the past. all his desire is to make things as they were. His freedom of thought is limited to working out the best way to undo the changes that have occurred. the Valar, in the same way, only seek to make mainfest the Music. None of them are looking to make new things. They don't look to the future in the way that Men do, & this is clearly because they can't think in the way Men do. Whether Men realise it or not, they have a freedom to act beyond the Music & the constraints it lays on all others.

Elves, Valar & Maiar can only think within certain limits - psychological as well as physical limits. The Music constrains not simply what they may do, but even what they can think about. Their desire to 'embalm' the world around them is ultimately a desire to have things a certain way - the way the Music says it should be. the 'wrongness' in the world that they percieve is its veering from the archetype. They desire only to stop change, & change is mainly instigated by Men.....

[Mithalwen]

I would say that Men have more freewill than anyone else because of the Gift of Iluvatar to Men. For onceI have the book (I have not forgotten that when werewolves and RPG commitments allow, and I have a death wish, I have to explain my loathing of Luthien )

Sil. "Of the beginning of days" "He (Iluvatar) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and have no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;"

So Men get cadenzas the rest follow the score. No wonder the elves are passive by the end of the third age.....

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Without freewill there would have not have been a story, or at least a deadly boring one. Illuvatar's wish and will for the world and the beings therein does not go unchallanged. But the marvelous thing is that he can accomodate to allow for the occasional misguided individual's freewill. Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.

[Legolas]

I started a thread on freewill and evil here that might be of interest; in the initial post I provide a lot of quotes from Tolkien concerning freewill.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Fea

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Adding to what mormegil said, a prophecy is not specific. Usually it does not go beyond saying that X event will happen. It doesn't say who will make it come to pass, or how exactly it will happen.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Cheers for the link lindil, I'd never read that thread before. I particularly enjoy Kalessin's post, second from the top. He/She said:

"It seems clear to me that Tolkien never resolved this level of philosophical problem, or indeed attempted to."

He was writing awesome books dealing in very difficult problems and there are always going to be people picking holes everywhere. Just think: Is there a contradiction in the mythology and if so, is this a negative?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

"Is there Free will in Middle-earth?

Yes.

No.

Probably both."


You're confusing me Fordim, stop confusing me!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

Not exactly. You can't have both fate and free will. If you've got a fate (like Turin, or Aragorn), then you can make as many choices as you want, but you'll still end up having to face this fate. Especially Turin, come to think of it. "Master of Doom, by doom mastered." It didn't matter what choices he made, he couldn't escape his doom. It completely negates the idea of free will if half the occurences of your life are already plotted out for you. You can't say "I don't want to experience this" if it's guaranteed to happen by the Allmighty. You don't have a say in the matter any more.

When I was a bit younger, I had a certain "let's not call it prayer... mantra's a better word for it".

Thank you for free will, if that exists, for making life interesting,

And thank you for fate, if that exists, for making life easy.