The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This debate of Men changing the Music and changing Eä could be resolved if we think that Eru foreknew the changes Men would make when he made the Third Theme.

Of course, this would make some people think that Men do what Eru just sung/played, and therefore, they are just robots of an omnipotent, omniscient being.

But predestination and prescience are not one and the same. One can foreknow without actually laying the path for the event.

Since we are all time-bound beings here (unless someone's not speaking up) we need an example. If I see a muon, I know that in 2.2 microseconds, it will decay into an electron, a neutrino, and an antineutrino. Now, this foreknowledge of mine does not mean I did the actual decay, because the muon is wholly other from me. But I can respond to it by photographing the decay, or something else.

Now, how does this apply to the Music? Perhaps Eru, unbound by time, saw the future at the same time Ainulindalë raged on before him, and introduced a new theme, one based on the actions Men would take when confronted with a certain situation.

But does this mean Eru made Men do certain things? No! As I said, the muon is a thing wholly other from me. And to Eru, Men are other.

Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves . . . But . . . the voice of Ilúvatar said: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.'

TS 2 - emphasis mine

Post-traumatic possum. H-I, I shall be reacting to your "Two Wills" post soon.

[Son of Númenor]

A muon does not have a will.

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

A muon does not have a will. (SoN)

I know, but I'm using some example that will most closely resembles what I think really happens. The muon's action, after all, is foreseeable.

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny? (SoN)

The Creator is both omnitemporal and extratemporal. He sees Time not as how we see. We're ignorant of how Someone can see Time all at once. But that is how He views it.

EDIT: Maybe my use of the words "foreknowledge" and "prescience" is throwing things up. I should perhaps just use "knowledge"--unprefixed--when referring to Eru.

[Son of Númenor]

I just don't see how I have a free will if God knows I am going to jump off a cliff and die when I'm 23.

[Formendacil]

If the idea I am getting from Nilp has survived the data transfer intact, perhaps it is not the concept of freewill that should perhaps be questioned, but that of time...

How do we KNOW that in the cosmic scheme of things, the Music took place BEFORE Arda?

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

Therefore, it could follow that "time" has no meaning in the Halls of Eru, and that the Music can be said to be playing simultaneously before, during, and after the Events that mirror it in Arda.

If this is the case, how do we not know that the Music being orchestrated by Eru is not being dictated by the actions of Men in Arda? Or that the actions of the Ainur in and out of Arda are congruent because they are one and the same- at the SAME time?

Questions, questions... Always questions...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But yours is actually better.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SoN

the world is the confines set by the Music

Good!

Originally Posted by SoN

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny?

Less so - Knowing is not forcing. Imagine that me and you were sitting for a day in a room, with nothing else to do but to watch each other. Seeing your past actions I may deduce your future actions with a good deal of accuracy. Per instance, if you haven't drunk for the whole morning, and smoked excessively, I do know that at one point soon you'll rise and go to the tap to pour yourself a glass of water. Presently, you do so - did I, who knew you would do that, actually force you to do it?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

Quite a question, that. That's why Music is rails analogy may work