Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

Not exactly. You can't have both fate and free will. If you've got a fate (like Turin, or Aragorn), then you can make as many choices as you want, but you'll still end up having to face this fate. Especially Turin, come to think of it. "Master of Doom, by doom mastered." It didn't matter what choices he made, he couldn't escape his doom. It completely negates the idea of free will if half the occurences of your life are already plotted out for you. You can't say "I don't want to experience this" if it's guaranteed to happen by the Allmighty. You don't have a say in the matter any more.

When I was a bit younger, I had a certain "let's not call it prayer... mantra's a better word for it".

Thank you for free will, if that exists, for making life interesting,

And thank you for fate, if that exists, for making life easy.

[alatar]

As Eru is omniscient, one might think that there is no free will. Plus, as the Music was sung before Arda was made, it would also seem that everything has been plotted/doomed/fated.

Not sure that I agree.

My other favorite author, Frank Herbert (of the Dune series) explored the free will/fate/god question. He posited that a god may want to allow true 100% free will just to relieve the boredom. It would be like watching the same movie night after night - wouldn't it be cool if one time, while watching ROTK EE, Gandalf's staff doesn't break? But I digress.

Anyway, could not Eru have set up the 'rules of the game' (stuff falls down not up, time moves forward, etc), created the original set of actors (valar, maia, elves, men, etc), established his own plan (introduction of the elves at X year, men to show up later, etc) and then sit back and watch how it all plays out?

The evidence gleaned from the actions of Melkor (rebellion), Aule (dwarves), men, etc, would point to free will. Now, it's still Eru's game, and at any time he can change the rules, dabble, or destroy the whole show as he desires. The actors therein can do whatever they feel is the correct choice, but Eru, being the smart god that he is, knows that with some probability that certain outcomes are assured.

Think about it. In the beginning we have only one vala go sour. What if more went against Eru? Would Arda have become so lopsidedly bad that Eru's game would have been spoiled and so he would have had to start over.

Hmmm. What evidence do we have that this time is the first and only time that Eru played the game? What if he tried some other combinations, gathered data, experimented more then finally got a game set up that would provide maximum entertainment/glory while also maximizing the free will of the actors therein?

Gods, being without limits by definition, can do these kind of things...

[Durelin]

Yes, there is free will.

What would the point be if there wasn't? What kind of story would LotR be? What would Aragorn, Frodo, Boromir, Smeagol, or any character matter if they did not have a choice when it came to their destinies? If Frodo was destined to take the Ring to Mordor, then what is there to admire in his character? If he didn't choose to be the hero, if he was simply forced by destiny or whatever/whoever, does he have any real strength of character at all? The same goes for Aragorn and accepting his kinglyness. If he had no choice, where's his strength and majesty that we all can admire? And what about Boromir: was he simply destined to be desirous of the ring? If so, then what need is there for him to feel guilt at all? Where's the human struggle?!

And I could never accept the fact that Smeagol had to kill Deagol and become the horrible wretch of Gollum...

And now I think of Galadriel and her little temptation. She had a choice. She held a great power, and any true power can be used for both good or evil (though really there's no happy medium). What would the point be if she didn't have the option of using it to make herself powerful, and thus with rather dark intentions? It wouldn't be a true power, as the highest power will lie at the peak of a mountain, at a dangerous height, where it is easy to fall.

No free will, no choice... I want my human struggle!



-Durelin

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm not saying that I don't want free will. Heck... I really, really want it. More than you can guess. I'm just saying that I don't see how you can possibly have both free will AND fate. One negates the other.

[Durelin]

You can choose your own fate.

It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice.

Perhaps Illuvatar put a big flashy arrow pointing to whichever door led Frodo to taking on his quest.

You ever heard your mom tell you, 'You make a better door than a window' while standing in front of the TV? Yeah, apply that to this whole door thing too and then we'll really have some fun.

I expect Frodo could've chosen window number 17 as an escape route.

Edit: **Disclaimer**Durelin is simply amusing herself**Disclaimer**

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Durelin

You can choose your own fate.

It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice.

Could it be that for each 'choice' there are a specific number of doors. Each door is associated with some probability (sorry if I start sounding like a math teacher). So, for example, there could be 10 doors that Frodo could have walked through when he was making the decision regarding what to do with the Ring. Door #1 is to throw it away, Door #2 is to give it as a gift to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins when the Nazgul are about to show up, Door #3 is to make Gandalf to take the Ring, Door #4 is to encourage Sam to marry Rosie, and just doesn't Frodo have the perfect ring for the occassion, and Door #5 is to give it to one the dwarves traveling through the Shire and make a bet with them that they can't unmake it (bet gold).

Doors #5-#10 are all associated with taking the Ring to the Fire, but vary on the details. Whereas #5 may be to leave immediately without Sam, #10 may be to leave sometime in the future, preferably after Frodo beats the Gerontius Took in birthdays.

Now, Frodo is a Baggins, meaning that he's a bit contrary (i.e. nuts), and he was selected by Bilbo (a bit more nuts) to carry the Ring, meaning that Bilbo saw something in Frodo that would allow for this privilege/curse. Frodo had a deep love for the Shire and its inhabitants, and also had a sense of duty. He had the companionship of Sam, which also helped shape his character. Gandalf surely played some part in shaping Frodo's character and decisions, as he held the Ring of Fire, loved the Shire and Middle earth (and wanted to save it), and also had a clear sense of duty - Gandalf didn't go off studying birds or shacking up in some tower with a copy of "Famous Rings of Middle Earth" coffee table tome. Frodo, seeing Gandalf as an example, may have wanted to be like the wizard. Plus Gandalf was a friend of Bilbo, whom Frodo loved.

So for Frodo, doors #1 and #2 were out completely (would have a very low probability) as choices, as are #4 and #5. Door #3 was a reasonable choice as it allowed Frodo to save the Shire and save himself the hassle, but Gandalf would not allow it and if Frodo were to sneak the Ring onto Gandalf's person, when Gandalf found out, he would be a bit upset (that is if Gandalf didn't raze the Shire along with the rest of Middle Earth as the new Dark-Grey Lord), and we know that Frodo respected the wizard and his greater abilities - not someone with which to mess.

Doors 5 through 10 were therefore more probable choices. Frodo would need some time to torque himself up, and so #5 was out. Door 10 was somewhat reasonable, but I think that Gandalf had Frodo concerned enough not to forget the task completely.

So the even more probable doors were 6, 7 and 8, which we can assume vary somewhat in the lesser details. We can never know which of these three that he chose. And after that set of doors, Frodo went onto the next ten (with blue cloak, red cloak, no cloak, etc)...

Anyway, so my long-winded point is that Frodo had free will to choose whichever door from the set, but as Frodo was the person that he was, the actual number of choices for him were in reality limited.

Fated? I don't think so, but some events have higher (almost certain) probabilities based on what we know.

I'm going to go and have my brain cleaned now - all of that mathematical thinking (more than was posted thankfully) has just made a mess of the place.

Edit - I think that my thoughts crossed with the phantom's...or not.

[the phantom]

Alatar explained things pretty well.

You say that there is free will because they can choose the path they go down

Yes.

but then you say that Eru can tweak their souls to make them go down a certain path

Yes.

Let me explain.

First, everyone must have a certain nature. How Eru decides what nature to give someone I don't know (perhaps it's mostly random?), but in certain situations it seems that He adds a little something to someone's nature to ensure that they are more likely to take a certain path.

Also, keep in mind that Eru can see what path their particular nature will lead them down no matter what nature they have.

So it doesn't matter if someone is fated to do a great task or not- Eru can already see the choices they will make. Therefore someone who was "fated" to do a great task was not given any less free will than the guy living next door to him who never did anything. They both had a certain personality and Eru could forsee exactly what their personality and circumstances would lead them to do.

I don't believe that knowing what someone is going to do ahead of time means that the person does not have free will to choose.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I really don’t think that just because something seems bound to happen that it over shadows free will. Neither do I think that just because a prediction comes true that a person is predestined. Some types of personalities are inclined to follow a course that is predictable, and some are influenced by what is expected of them (or what they expect of themselves). This does not mean that their choices are useless, or that they are confined by the will of another.

[the phantom]

Forgive me if I am just repeating things that others have said, but I have barely read the thread and I won't have time to for the next week or so (I'm on vacation and I only have about five minutes on my cousin's computer before I have to run off and do something touristy).

I think you can have free will and fate at the same time.

Let's say that there is something that needs to happen in Middle Earth- something that is supposed to happen.

So, Eru decides to take care of it. In Tolkien's world, people's spirits/souls come from Eru, so He is the one that determines their personality, nature, and such.

So if he needs a certain task to be completed, he can simply tweak someone so that they will end up doing the task of their own free will.

The person has free will and can choose whatever they want, it's just that Eru already knows exactly what they are going to choose because he knows what sort of spirit he gave them and how events would shape their decision.

So if Eru wants something done, he designs someone with a certain blend of character that will bring about the desired result.

If you know what someone is going to do it does not mean he doesn't have free will- it just means that you know what he is going to do with his free will ahead of time.

Make sense?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nope.