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Feanor of the Peredhil · 07-20-2005, 12:38 PM

"[blah blah blah] [something about a celestial voice]/If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

That the one you're thinking of? Because now it's stuck in my head, and when you have a song in your head that you only know a few words to, that's annoying.

Although it does make one think. So I've been asking friends all morning what they think of this arguement as it applies to RL, and I've gotten two answers. The first is that there is both free will and fate. Free will is you making decisions that appeal to you, and fate is when a higher power steps in to knock you down a few pegs and keeps you from getting cocky or screwing up too badly.

The other answer is that there is only free will and that what we like to think of as "fate" is just a series of circumstances that come out in favor of a certain occurence.

So I considered that for awhile, then I considered a post of alatar's (from yesterday morning), and then I considered a few if/then statements, and here's what I came up with:

If you've got an open ended question like with The All-Mighty setting up the rules and then sitting back to watch the game, then you can have both fate/destiny/higher power and free will. Because the Ultimate Plan of Eru is to sit back and see what happens, but not to encourage it or tweak it.

If, on the other hand, you've got a clearly defined (or defined in any way) ending to the story (Eru's got something in mind that's going to happen), then anything you do plays into it and it's already been forseen. If it's already been forseen, it's already happened, and you can't change what's already happened, even if it happens in the future.

Now since I don't think that last bit made any sense at all, I'm just going to give up for awhile, since I suspect that I might be being pig-headed without noticing.

davem · 07-20-2005, 12:47 PM

The German mystic Meister Eckhart believed that God creates past, present & future from outside time, in eternity. In other words, He is creating the Past all the time. This is because it is His nature to Create & the whole of time & space is in a constant state of being created. So, not only are present & past full of possibilities because of free will, but so is the past.

Eru's plan for the completion & perfection of Ea is precisely that - that in the end it will be complete & perfect. Knowing all hearts & minds & thus what will fulfil them all, & being omnipotent, one can only assume that He will bring about a conclusion that will satisfy all beings, one which will include true freedom for all.

View Poll Results: Is there free will in Middle-Earth?
Yes	29	58.00%
No	3	6.00%
Probably both	18	36.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

07-20-2005, 12:38 PM	#1
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	"[blah blah blah] [something about a celestial voice]/If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." That the one you're thinking of? Because now it's stuck in my head, and when you have a song in your head that you only know a few words to, that's annoying. Although it does make one think. So I've been asking friends all morning what they think of this arguement as it applies to RL, and I've gotten two answers. The first is that there is both free will and fate. Free will is you making decisions that appeal to you, and fate is when a higher power steps in to knock you down a few pegs and keeps you from getting cocky or screwing up too badly. The other answer is that there is only free will and that what we like to think of as "fate" is just a series of circumstances that come out in favor of a certain occurence. So I considered that for awhile, then I considered a post of alatar's (from yesterday morning), and then I considered a few if/then statements, and here's what I came up with: If you've got an open ended question like with The All-Mighty setting up the rules and then sitting back to watch the game, then you can have both fate/destiny/higher power and free will. Because the Ultimate Plan of Eru is to sit back and see what happens, but not to encourage it or tweak it. If, on the other hand, you've got a clearly defined (or defined in any way) ending to the story (Eru's got something in mind that's going to happen), then anything you do plays into it and it's already been forseen. If it's already been forseen, it's already happened, and you can't change what's already happened, even if it happens in the future. Now since I don't think that last bit made any sense at all, I'm just going to give up for awhile, since I suspect that I might be being pig-headed without noticing. __________________ peace

07-20-2005, 12:47 PM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	The German mystic Meister Eckhart believed that God creates past, present & future from outside time, in eternity. In other words, He is creating the Past all the time. This is because it is His nature to Create & the whole of time & space is in a constant state of being created. So, not only are present & past full of possibilities because of free will, but so is the past. Eru's plan for the completion & perfection of Ea is precisely that - that in the end it will be complete & perfect. Knowing all hearts & minds & thus what will fulfil them all, & being omnipotent, one can only assume that He will bring about a conclusion that will satisfy all beings, one which will include true freedom for all. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."