The True Master.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And another important thing is Sauron will be destroyed forever if the Ring is, but the Ring can survive without Sauron.

Can it? Can there be a 'without Sauron' while the Ring exists? That we will never know. But this line of thought ends with the conclusion that Sauron is indeed very much dependent on the Ring - his True Master as Gurthang put it.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Without putting so much into the One, he probably wouldn't have gained influence over the other Rings.

I can't remember if this is in The Silm or some other book, but wasn't it said that the moment Sauron wore the One and uttered those Ash nazg words, Celebrimbor realized that they were deceived and thus he hid the Three? I'm sorry, I don't have the books with me.

But my point here is, Sauron may have gotten control over the Nine and some of the Seven, but I don't think he did over the Three. It was because Sauron put so much of his will into the One that Celebrimbor knew of his treachery before he was even able to see the Three.

But yes, it's interesting that Sauron put his power into the Ring as to 'spread' his influence. Had he not done so, once others realize his dark form and substance, he could no longer sway them to his side. But through the Ring, he could use others to his purposes without them knowing it - because the Ring 'looks fair but feels foul.' Oh, the ingenuity of all this.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sauron, without his Ring, is almost nothing. (Gurthang)

You might also say that I, without my internal organs, am nothing.

The Ring is a part of his existence, so he needs it. But not with him, exactly. Just as long as its there. (Of course the safest place it would be is right in his finger, so he would try to find it.)

As long as the the Ring exists, Sauron's will exists. That's why if someone used its powers, he would in the end replace Sauron. Sauron would still exist, albeit in a different form--like how Morgoth's will is still in Arda, despite him being without it. Thus many mini-Morgoth spring out of Middle-earth.

So you might call the relationship between Sauron and the Ring egotism, in a weird way.

All Sauron needed was for the Ring to continue to exist. (davem)

Exactly. Well, better said.

If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. (daeron)

I should just point out that the decline of the Númenóreans as a race is not due to anything foolish Men had done:

[T]he waning [of the Dúnedain] . . . proceeded, little by little . . . For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenóreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star.

LR Appendix A I iv--emphasis mine

The slow, steady decline of the might of the Dúnedain is a natural thing. So, they could have remained alert and assembled armies and all, but I don't think that, force-on-force, they could have prevailed upon Sauron.

And remember, the Second Age-Númenóreans also had help from Beleriandic-Wars veteran Elves (or their descendants). Gondor had no such heavy-hitting allies, except Rohan (which is, still, relatively small.)

. . . Sauron may have gotten control over the Nine and some of the Seven, but I don't think he did over the Three. It was because Sauron put so much of his will into the One that Celebrimbor knew of his treachery before he was even able to see the Three. (Lhuna)

No, daga. They came from the same blueprint--Sauron's. So they were still under the One.

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

Yes I see what you are saying. Even though Sauron made the Ring, it seems that it has come to master him. Though if he has the Ring, he uses it. He still has power over it, does he not? When he puts the Ring on, he is using its power as a tool or weapon. I have not given much thought to this topic. It is very intriguing.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilp

No, daga. They came from the same blueprint--Sauron's. So they were still under the One.

Daga ka rin.

I know this has already been discussed somewhere, but what I meant in saying that "Sauron did not have control over the Three" is that despite wielding the One, he had no effect whatsoever on things done through the use of the Three. Like if Galadriel used Nenya to establish Lothlorien, Sauron could do nothing about it using the One.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I know this has already been discussed somewhere, but what I meant in saying that "Sauron did not have control over the Three" is that despite wielding the One, he had no effect whatsoever on things done through the use of the Three. Like if Galadriel used Nenya to establish Lothlorien, Sauron could do nothing about it using the One. (yung daga kong kapatid)

Galadriel did not use Nenya to build Laurelindorénan, she used it to protect it.

And while the One was on Sauron's finger, the bearers of the Three did not wear them, because they well knew that their minds would be revealed to Sauron.

I have oodles of UT and LR quotes to prove it; unfortunately, they're not with me.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by Turgon Philip Noldor
Yes I see what you are saying. Even though Sauron made the Ring, it seems that it has come to master him. Though if he has the Ring, he uses it. He still has power over it, does he not? When he puts the Ring on, he is using its power as a tool or weapon. I have not given much thought to this topic. It is very intriguing.

You could almost just as easily say that the Ring used Sauron as a tool. The Ring's will and Sauron's were the same. If they were together, there is really no way to see which is ruling the other, because they would do the same things regardless.

This is why I pointed out that, without the Ring, Sauron acted much like Gollum did, insomuch that he bent much of his available resources into its retreival(sp). This seems to show to me that the Ring had a power over Sauron, so that Sauron wanted it more than he would ordinarily want a 'tool'.

I just thought of an analogy. It's not extremely accurate, but it's kind of funny. A dog and its tail! At first, the dog(Sauron) seems to be the master, and the tail(Ring) is just an extension. But when a dog chases its tail, it seems that the tail has the upper hand. Two things could happen: (a) the dog doesn't catch his tail or (b) the dog catches its tail, but by biting his tail, he is really bitiing himself. In either case it seems that the tail comes out on top. Either it doesn't get caught, or it hurts the dog as much as it is hurt!

(Obviously, this is full of holes. Sauron wouldn't want to hurt the Ring nor is it running from him. It was just too funny not to share! )

[gorthaur_cruel]

I know this has already been discussed somewhere, but what I meant in saying that "Sauron did not have control over the Three" is that despite wielding the One, he had no effect whatsoever on things done through the use of the Three. Like if Galadriel used Nenya to establish Lothlorien, Sauron could do nothing about it using the One.

As mentioned above, the Three were just as much under the control of the One as the Nine or the Seven. Only, Sauron never got a chance to control them. The main reason that drove Sauron to attack Eregion was that the Elves, contrary to his plan, took off all their Rings. Thus, Sauron had no power over them in the Second Age.

In the Third Age, Sauron obviously lacked his Ring. Thus, he could exercise no control over any of the Three. Yet, they emphasize many times that if Sauron regains the One, all their work will be laid bare to him. In fact, I think this is the greatest power of the Ring, actually...