LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 05 - The Ride of the Rohirrim

[Lalwendë]

There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, the marshal who commanded the eored in which they were riding.

I noticed this 'understanding' too, but drew something different from it. Rather than reading it as some kind of insubordination towards Theoden, I took it to mean that perhaps 'Dernhelm' had exerted some kind of influence over Elfhelm. Wouldn't a Marshall such as Elfhelm be aware of all the men he had in his command? So I wonder how Eowyn got away with her disguise. Either she took the place of a man she knew had not turned up to join the party of riders, or Elfhelm had not done a proper 'head-count' due to the rush to leave Rohan, though I think the latter might be unlikely as the Riders seem to be organised. I think it is quite possible that Elfhelm knew full well who Dernhelm really was, and if so this leaves open interesting possibilities.

before them on the ground sat a strange squat shape of a man, gnarled as an old stone, and the hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss. He was short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist. Merry felt that he had seen him before somewhere, and suddenly he remembered the Pukel-men of Dunharrow. Here was one of those old images brought to life, or maybe a creature descended in true line through endless years from the models used by the forgotten craftsmen long ago.

I'm very fond of the Woses as they are such intriguing people. They seem to have a quality of older cultures from our own world, and I'm sure others have wondered if this is what Tolkien was drawing upon.

Wild Men live here before Stone-houses; before Tall Men come up out of Water.

They have existed in Middle-earth before the Numenoreans returned, presumably in the wild lands east of Beleriand, and whereas we are told that many Men turned to the ways of Morgoth, these Men did not, which also makes me wonder what other cultures are still undiscovered in Middle-earth.

In the passage where Ghan-buri-Ghan is described, he somehow reminds me of a Hobbit - "short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy" - and if having a beard is quite rare amongst their people, as Firefoot says, then this is another similarity. I wonder if they were also related to the 'river-folk' who numbered Gollum amongst their kin? Maybe Merry was seeing himself reflected in the older, wilder face of Ghan-buri-Ghan?

In any case, they are certainly enigmatic. I do like the way Tolkien has included these 'glimpses' of other cultures in Middle-earth, but has not explained them thoroughly. As in our world, we cannot hope to do more than speculate about them, and this adds to how fascinating they are.

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

I have always wondered what was so special in the wind changing. The Wild Men and Rohirrim weren't aware of Aragorn sailing up Anduin so what did it matter where the wind blew?

Why is the wind changing? Is it to do with the arrival of Aragorn and the dead Men? Is it Eru intervening? Or can Sauron only sustain the mirk for so long (I wonder if he has got the Mithril shirt by this time, as this might distract him)?

The effect is clear though, as a change in the wind would blow away that mirk, and part of the purpose of it is to protect/support the Mordor Orcs. Without the gloom the Orcs may be less effective, and therefore it would be an excellent sign for it to disperse.

Originally Posted by Esty

Do the descriptions of "joy of battle" and singing that was "fair and terrible" strike you as paradox? Can you feel a connection between battling and singing, or does that seem irreconcilable to you?

This has troubled me in the past, but singing and chanting into battle has been used through history as a morale booster, so it is not quite as incongruous as it might seem against the message that war is ultimately a destructive act. I think that playing music into battle is still used to this day by US troops, and while it may seem brutal to us that soldiers sing and are 'entertained' as they kill, it is an age-old method of raising both morale and adrenalin. I don't know if Tolkien had any experience of this himself in WWI.

[Dimturiel]

The description of the attack of the Rohirrim and of their "fair and terrible " singing is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful images from LOTR. I doubt that there has been any reader that has not been moved by that scene. And it seems to fit very well with the way the Rohirrims are described by Aragorn, in "The Two Towers" , chapter two, "The Riders of Rohan":

...singing many songs after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years.

I like the fact that they are compared to the children of Men. Maybe this gives them a way of thinking which is different from that of the Men of Gondor, they see things in a much more simple manner, as the first Men used to. More simple, true, but maybe also wiser, who can tell? And maybe that is why they sing during the attack and feel such a joy and a desire to fight. These things are inside them, as they were inside their ancestors. Who knows, maybe they are inside us too, we have never been faced with the situation to see how we would react. Even I, when I watch the charge of the Rohirrim from ROTK the movie for the twentieth time, feel my mind go blank and I start trembling and clenching my fists.