LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Whether there was in Tolkien's mind any connection between the crowing of this cock & the crowing of the cock in the Gospels is a question I can't answer, obviously, but its interesting that that cockcrow signalled the lowest point of the Christian story, but the point at which everything was about to turn around with the Crucifixion & Resurrection of Christ. Here we have a similar symbolic cockcrow, & many will die this day, but by the end of it a new king will have 'arisen'....

Gosh, davem, here you are bringing 'baggage' into the story from outside reading instead of just allowing yourself to experience the cock as a cock crowing to announce the dawn. Middle earth didn't have all that many clocks or, apparently, bells. Can't a cock just be a cock?

[HerenIstarion]

Gosh, davem, here you are bringing 'baggage' into the story from outside reading instead of just allowing yourself to experience the cock as a cock crowing to announce the dawn. Middle earth didn't have all that many clocks or, apparently, bells. Can't a cock just be a cock?

Gosh, Bb , he came walking, no baggage upon his person. Let us imagine davem entering dimly lit manor, where the enormous picture is hung over the fireplace, and that is what catches the eye and has the beholder enthralled and drawn to itself immediately upon entering. But once the eye grows accustomed to the half-defined shadows, lot of other trifles may be seen placed here and there, apparantly at random, but not so upon reflection, and not trifles at all upon some more, which may seem apart from the big picture, but which help, in fact, define it, and the picture without items around would be, well, appealing, beautiful, awesome, but still just a picture, but with those placed around, it also tells a story and aslo reminds of things once known, and maybe forgotten. Whatever you see davem holding, is not a thing he brought from the outside, it was picked up in the manor for closer examination, or for wonder, or for pleasure and joy.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Gosh, Bb , he came walking, no baggage upon his person. Let us imagine davem entering dimly lit manor, where the enormous picture is hung over the fireplace, and that is what catches the eye and has the beholder enthralled and drawn to itself immediately upon entering. But once the eye grows accustomed to the half-defined shadows, lot of other trifles may be seen placed here and there, apparantly at random, but not so upon reflection, and not trifles at all upon some more, which may seem apart from the big picture, but which help, in fact, define it, and the picture without items around would be, well, appealing, beautiful, awesome, but still just a picture, but with those placed around, it also tells a story and aslo reminds of things once known, and maybe forgotten. Whatever you see davem holding, is not a thing he brought from the outside, it was picked up in the manor for closer examination, or for wonder, or for pleasure and joy.

Sometimes, HI, 'tis a looking glass and not a picture.

Originally Posted by davem

No I'm not. I'm merely pointing up a similarity, & speculating on whether that might have been in the author's mind. What I mean by 'baggage' is dragging in things from the primary world/readers own experience & imposing them on the secondary world. Applicability = the secondary world shining a light on the primary world & thereby illuminating some aspect of it. Allegory = forcing the primary world onto the secondary world until it submits.

(Can't believe you thought I couldn't talk my way out of that one )

I am amused by your belief that you know what was in my mind, my intentions, davem. 'twasn't my purpose in making that post, but, then, you often mistake my purpose for your own kind of interest and purpose.

Good day, gentlemen.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Gosh, davem, here you are bringing 'baggage' into the story from outside reading instead of just allowing yourself to experience the cock as a cock crowing to announce the dawn. Middle earth didn't have all that many clocks or, apparently, bells. Can't a cock just be a cock?

No I'm not. I'm merely pointing up a similarity, & speculating on whether that might have been in the author's mind. What I mean by 'baggage' is dragging in things from the primary world/readers own experience & imposing them on the secondary world. Applicability = the secondary world shining a light on the primary world & thereby illuminating some aspect of it. Allegory = forcing the primary world onto the secondary world until it submits.

(Can't believe you thought I couldn't talk my way out of that one )