The Grace of Ilúvatar? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HerenIstarion · 08-09-2005, 04:37 AM

1. Sauron by the end of the first age
2. Gollum on the stairs, prior to Sam abusing him

Undeserving, but almost there

1. Noldor and Men, and Earendil's prayer before the Valar
2. 9 ships of the Faithful

Underserving, and there

Morsul the Dark · 08-09-2005, 10:39 AM

Uh aren't the halls of morgoth kind of like Hell with Balrogs as demons... I haven't read the lost tales in a while but that sticks out in my mind

Formendacil · 08-09-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Uh aren't the halls of morgoth kind of like Hell with Balrogs as demons... I haven't read the lost tales in a while but that sticks out in my mind

To judge by the fact that references of that nature are never to be seen in the post-Lost Tales era, I think we can say that that was an idea that Tolkien discarded...

mark12_30 · 08-09-2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

To judge by the fact that references of that nature are never to be seen in the post-Lost Tales era, I think we can say that that was an idea that Tolkien discarded...

Momentary aside: Perhaps he didn't discard it as much as adapt it. Moria, the Dead Marshes, Cirith Ungol, Minas Morgul, the Morannon, and the rest of Mordor don't strike me as heavenly, or hospitable, or even nice. Even Isengard goes through a rather hellish phase. I think the theme of a hellish place in which one would much rather not be detained shows up again and again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

but you didn't go there for being naughty, and they were destroyed a long time ago anyway

True. But Morgoth was banished from Arda-- for being both naughty and unrepentant. I doubt the place he was banished to was Nice.

Back to the regular topic...

Frodo Baggins · 08-09-2005, 02:18 PM

Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance. I do not believe Mortogh really repented and was truly sorry of what he did. When Manwe let him go he was still as nasty as before and didn't care one straw whether or not he was causing grief for everyone else. Morgoth, I believe, only said he was sorry to get out of the sticky situation the Valar put him in. To put it more simply, Morgoth was not sorry for what he had done, he was only sorry he got caught.

Those who are genuinely repentant and truly seek forgiveness, who stop what evil they are committing, are gladly given grace.

Gurthang · 08-09-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frodo Baggins
Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance.

True, but the mind of Eru, who I think this question is referring to, sees the true intent behind a repentance. Meaning He really knows whether you're sorry or not and there is no way to fool Him.

Quote:

Originally posted by burrahobbit
Oh you cad. You don't give it to somebody that is so naughty that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways.

I think he's got a point here. If a person refuses the grace that is being offered, can he receive it? I'd say no. The Noldor are a prime example. They forsook the 'grace' of living in Aman and left. At that point, the offer of 'grace' was withdrawn from them so that they could not come back, like Estelyn mentioned.

HerenIstarion · 08-09-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

But isn't "deserving of grace" a contradiction in terms? The very definition of grace is that it is not deserved, but is given as a mercy: "grace: 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification".

Yes, that's the point, unmerited being the keyword. I'll go along with noone being deserving per se. Rest, I'll agree with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways

Deliberately omitting 'you don't give...' part of the sentence, seeing as it is unprovable in either direction. (1. No one knows mind of Eru as a whole 2. Eru is free at all times 3. Eru is merciful)

Eru

burrahobbit · 08-09-2005, 11:50 AM

Morsul: sort of but I don't think you're on exactly the right track. They were sort of analogous to Hell, with demons and such, but you didn't go there for being naughty, and they were destroyed a long time ago anyway.

HerenIstarion: I still disagree. I would say that all of those people deserved grace at those particular times, and beyond that I would say that it takes quite a lot to keep a person from deserving grace. Even though Sauron had been a very naughty boy up until that point he still had the chance to repent, and was even close to doing it. It's basically the same idea as all of the discussion about why Manwe let Morgoth out of his chains. Everyone has to be given the chance to repent, and if they take that chance they can be opened up to receiving grace. Sauron did not ever repent and accept grace, so when he was defeated finally he just sort of blew away. You could say that he was given grace just by the fact that he was allowed the chance to repent, but I would disagree with that and say that it is so morally encumbant on any entity to allow a person the chance to repent that it is just a matter of course. If Eru/Manwe/Eonwe had not given him that chance they would have proved themselves to be malevolent beings. (A bit of an overstatment, but to the point.)

***Mister Underhill*** · 08-09-2005, 11:53 AM

But isn't "deserving of grace" a contradiction in terms? The very definition of grace is that it is not deserved, but is given as a mercy: "grace: 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification".

burrahobbit · 08-09-2005, 11:59 AM

What I mean is you don't give grace to naughty people.

***Mister Underhill*** · 08-09-2005, 12:00 PM

Sure you do, that's the point.

burrahobbit · 08-09-2005, 12:03 PM

Oh you cad. You don't give it to somebody that is so naughty that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways.

08-09-2005, 04:37 AM	#1
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	laconicity is like a ping-pong - you say ping, I say pong... 1. Sauron by the end of the first age 2. Gollum on the stairs, prior to Sam abusing him Undeserving, but almost there 1. Noldor and Men, and Earendil's prayer before the Valar 2. 9 ships of the Faithful Underserving, and there __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

08-09-2005, 10:39 AM	#2
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	Uh aren't the halls of morgoth kind of like Hell with Balrogs as demons... I haven't read the lost tales in a while but that sticks out in my mind __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

08-09-2005, 02:18 PM	#5
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance. I do not believe Mortogh really repented and was truly sorry of what he did. When Manwe let him go he was still as nasty as before and didn't care one straw whether or not he was causing grief for everyone else. Morgoth, I believe, only said he was sorry to get out of the sticky situation the Valar put him in. To put it more simply, Morgoth was not sorry for what he had done, he was only sorry he got caught. Those who are genuinely repentant and truly seek forgiveness, who stop what evil they are committing, are gladly given grace. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

08-09-2005, 11:50 AM	#8
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Morsul: sort of but I don't think you're on exactly the right track. They were sort of analogous to Hell, with demons and such, but you didn't go there for being naughty, and they were destroyed a long time ago anyway. HerenIstarion: I still disagree. I would say that all of those people deserved grace at those particular times, and beyond that I would say that it takes quite a lot to keep a person from deserving grace. Even though Sauron had been a very naughty boy up until that point he still had the chance to repent, and was even close to doing it. It's basically the same idea as all of the discussion about why Manwe let Morgoth out of his chains. Everyone has to be given the chance to repent, and if they take that chance they can be opened up to receiving grace. Sauron did not ever repent and accept grace, so when he was defeated finally he just sort of blew away. You could say that he was given grace just by the fact that he was allowed the chance to repent, but I would disagree with that and say that it is so morally encumbant on any entity to allow a person the chance to repent that it is just a matter of course. If Eru/Manwe/Eonwe had not given him that chance they would have proved themselves to be malevolent beings. (A bit of an overstatment, but to the point.) __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-09-2005, 11:59 AM	#10
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	What I mean is you don't give grace to naughty people. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-09-2005, 11:53 AM	#9
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	But isn't "deserving of grace" a contradiction in terms? The very definition of grace is that it is not deserved, but is given as a mercy: "grace: 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification".

08-09-2005, 12:00 PM	#11
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	Sure you do, that's the point.

08-09-2005, 12:03 PM	#12
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Oh you cad. You don't give it to somebody that is so naughty that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?