Melkor's depiction by artists: Flawed? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kuruharan · 08-22-2005, 10:07 AM

I tend to agree. I don't think Morgoth was "ugly" in the way that we normally use the word. I don't think that artists get it right.

However, in their favor, it is very difficult to adequately convey "terror" in a painting. So instead of terror they attempt revulsion.

(They also usually make him too tall, but that is another story.)

Elrowen Tinúviel · 08-22-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

(They also usually make him too tall, but that is another story.)

How tall is Melko/Melkor supposed to be? I myself have always thought of him being unusually tall - mainly because of his battle with Fingolfin. That part always made me think of him as rather huge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

It is not unlikely that Melko (in his early days) would have appeared as a fair creature, as Sauron did in later days.

If I'm not mistaken... he did. He caused much trouble for the Elves in the First Age, and it was either he or Sauron (on Melkor's orders), that was instrumental in the Fall of Númenor. At least with the Elves, since they abhor evil and anything ugly, when Melko wanted to decieve them, he would have to appear fair. I forget where it's written (pretty sure it's in the Silmarillion), but it says that the Elves were on occasion lured by evil that appeared fair.

Well, there's my two cents that I always have to throw in.

-Elrowen

Kuruharan · 08-22-2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

How tall is Melko/Melkor supposed to be? I myself have always thought of him being unusually tall - mainly because of his battle with Fingolfin. That part always made me think of him as rather huge.

Like a Balrog, his body was probably not much more than 10 feet tall. Maybe around 15 on the outside, but certainly no more than that.

Maerbenn · 08-22-2005, 05:58 PM

Tolkien wrote in the essay ‘Notes on motives in the Silmarillion’ (published in HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring) that Morgoth was “a tyrant of ogre-size” when Thangorodrim was broken.

Kuruharan · 08-22-2005, 06:32 PM

Well, that would be about 10-15 feet.

Elrowen Tinúviel · 08-22-2005, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Like a Balrog, his body was probably not much more than 10 feet tall. Maybe around 15 on the outside, but certainly no more than that.

Oh, okay. I tend to find the answers to questions such as Melkor and Sauron's size elusive.

Balrogs are about ten feet or so tall? That was one that I've often wondered at... (the movie confused me a little on this) because in the Silmarillion, when Glorfindel fights the Balrog, he stabs it in the heart... therefore they can't be all that tall. When I think of Balrogs, I usually picture them as being huge... and yet that cannot be, for the average height of the Elves is around six feet or so...

-Elrowen

Lord Melkor · 08-22-2005, 07:06 PM

Well, one can deduce the rough height of Melkor and his servants through logic reasoning

. It's safe to assume that Melkor would've been the tallest, being the Dark Lord and all that. Knowing Melkor's personality we can conclude that he would not allow one of his servants to be taller than himself. We also know that Glorfindel fought a Balrog and stabbed him in the stomach or chest and we know that the Balrog of Moria was small enough to attempt to enter the Chamber of Mazarbul so it's obvious that the movie Balrog is too large. My personal estimate is that the average Balrog was probably around 3 meters tall, still enough to tower over any of the Children of Iluvatar. Melkor himself would be even bigger, probably approaching 4 meters. Anything taller that 4 meters and the whole duel between him and Fingolfin will start to take on comedic qualities, with Fingolfin hacking away at Melkor's toes. At 4 meters Melkor would've been twice as tall as Fingolfin, more than enough to stand 'before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable enblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud.' Fingolfin would've been able to hit most of Melkors body with his sword, taking the reach of his blade into account. It also means that Melkor's foot is small enough to 'set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' If Morgoth was as tall as some artists depict him than 'And Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, face and entire upper body and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' would've been a more accurate desciption of the event.

Kuruharan · 08-22-2005, 08:29 PM

...but I've never allowed silly things like that to stop me.

Quote:

It's safe to assume that Melkor would've been the tallest, being the Dark Lord and all that. Knowing Melkor's personality we can conclude that he would not allow one of his servants to be taller than himself.

There is a possible exception to this though. His dragons would have been "larger" than he was. I guess it would be up to the reader's imagination whether a dragon standing on its legs would have been taller. If it was a winged dragon the wings would probably add to the height (even when they are folded).

Now this may just be an exception that proves a rule...

Also, I'm probably not well equipped to discuss dragon sizes and heights because my mental picture of them has evolved considerably. I had originally pictured them as being huge beasts that would tower well above humans and elves when standing on their legs. However, my picture has changed considerably. Due partially to the realization that this type of dragon would be ill-suited to the underground life that dragons preferred and partially to seeing Tolkien's own picture of Smaug they have become decidedly more snake-like and lower to the ground.

(It is kind of hard to disagree with how Tolkien drew Smaug in my own view).

However, I guess it could also depend on where the legs are and the structure of the neck whether a dragon would have been taller than Morgoth.

Elrowen Tinúviel · 08-22-2005, 08:33 PM

I must admit... sometimes logical reasoning isn't my strongest suit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

Fingolfin would've been able to hit most of Melkors body with his sword, taking the reach of his blade into account.

I completely understand that one.... I'm training in SCA heavy weapons combat, and I've sparred with people two (sometimes three) times my size... reach is insane... with a sword an inch longer (and using your body properly....... haven't quite gotten that down yet) it makes a huge difference!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

If Morgoth was as tall as some artists depict him than 'And Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, face and entire upper body and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' would've been a more accurate desciption of the event.

That makes for an interesting picture.

-Elrowen

The Perky Ent · 09-20-2005, 08:48 PM

Behold! My Morgoth Gallery!

Morgoth 1
Morgoth 2
Morgoth 3
Morgoth 4
Morgoth 5

Because of the size of the pics, They're in link format. Anyway, here's my two cents...

Being a big fan of Ulmo, I've always considered Valar around this size:

If that's too big for you, I can put it back in link form! Anyway, I consider Valar being at least over five times the size of a man. Morgoth, in my opinion, is a mixture of many evil and powerful beings. One of them being Ares, the Greek God of war. Ares

I consider Morgoth not far from the appearance of a man, but in an 'evil incarnate' look. The terrible feeling you get from seeing him is probably part of his 'All shall fear me and despair' aura he seems to carry about him. Fingolfin must be the king of neck strength. Clearly we have much to learn from him...

Yregwyn · 06-27-2014, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrowen Tinúviel

Oh, okay. I tend to find the answers to questions such as Melkor and Sauron's size elusive.

Balrogs are about ten feet or so tall? That was one that I've often wondered at... (the movie confused me a little on this) because in the Silmarillion, when Glorfindel fights the Balrog, he stabs it in the heart... therefore they can't be all that tall. When I think of Balrogs, I usually picture them as being huge... and yet that cannot be, for the average height of the Elves is around six feet or so...

-Elrowen

It says he stabbed it in the middle with his dirk as it was half again as tall as he was in "The fall of Gondolin". So it was 12' to 14' because elfs are like 6'4" or so, i dont remember where i read the elfs height at the Sil maybe?

08-22-2005, 10:07 AM	#1
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	I tend to agree. I don't think Morgoth was "ugly" in the way that we normally use the word. I don't think that artists get it right. However, in their favor, it is very difficult to adequately convey "terror" in a painting. So instead of terror they attempt revulsion. (They also usually make him too tall, but that is another story.) __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 08-22-2005 at 08:16 PM.

08-22-2005, 06:32 PM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	Well, that would be about 10-15 feet. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

09-20-2005, 08:48 PM	#10
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	My two cents...(Yes, I know it's 80% pictures, but humor me) Behold! My Morgoth Gallery! Morgoth 1 Morgoth 2 Morgoth 3 Morgoth 4 Morgoth 5 Because of the size of the pics, They're in link format. Anyway, here's my two cents... Being a big fan of Ulmo, I've always considered Valar around this size: If that's too big for you, I can put it back in link form! Anyway, I consider Valar being at least over five times the size of a man. Morgoth, in my opinion, is a mixture of many evil and powerful beings. One of them being Ares, the Greek God of war. Ares I consider Morgoth not far from the appearance of a man, but in an 'evil incarnate' look. The terrible feeling you get from seeing him is probably part of his 'All shall fear me and despair' aura he seems to carry about him. Fingolfin must be the king of neck strength. Clearly we have much to learn from him... __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

08-22-2005, 05:58 PM	#4
Maerbenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 59	Tolkien wrote in the essay ‘Notes on motives in the Silmarillion’ (published in HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring) that Morgoth was “a tyrant of ogre-size” when Thangorodrim was broken.

08-22-2005, 07:06 PM	#7
Lord Melkor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 78	Well, one can deduce the rough height of Melkor and his servants through logic reasoning . It's safe to assume that Melkor would've been the tallest, being the Dark Lord and all that. Knowing Melkor's personality we can conclude that he would not allow one of his servants to be taller than himself. We also know that Glorfindel fought a Balrog and stabbed him in the stomach or chest and we know that the Balrog of Moria was small enough to attempt to enter the Chamber of Mazarbul so it's obvious that the movie Balrog is too large. My personal estimate is that the average Balrog was probably around 3 meters tall, still enough to tower over any of the Children of Iluvatar. Melkor himself would be even bigger, probably approaching 4 meters. Anything taller that 4 meters and the whole duel between him and Fingolfin will start to take on comedic qualities, with Fingolfin hacking away at Melkor's toes. At 4 meters Melkor would've been twice as tall as Fingolfin, more than enough to stand 'before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable enblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud.' Fingolfin would've been able to hit most of Melkors body with his sword, taking the reach of his blade into account. It also means that Melkor's foot is small enough to 'set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' If Morgoth was as tall as some artists depict him than 'And Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, face and entire upper body and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.' would've been a more accurate desciption of the event.