Who would have fallen?

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by alatar

So go ahead, ruminate on Aragorn, vote for Legolas or Gimli or even consider the hobbits, but leave the Wizard off of the list. Gandalf would never take the Ring.

I think he would. It's like the cookie jar, that Ring is. Gandalf openly refused The One Cookie, but the temptation to eat that cookie grows, as he wonders at the possibilities. Gandalf wanted to defeat Sauron, and he wanted to help Frodo. So, why not do both (at least the Cookie would tell him that )?

He could take the Ring, and destroy Sauron with it, and maybe find enough strength in his friends to cast the Ring into the Fire. He would then have saved Frodo from that horrible experience, and not have risked his life any further. These thoughts would be in the back of his mind, and he might act on them.

Besides, the One Cookie is tasty.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

I think he would. It's like the cookie jar, that Ring is. Gandalf openly refused The One Cookie, but the temptation to eat that cookie grows, as he wonders at the possibilities. Gandalf wanted to defeat Sauron, and he wanted to help Frodo. So, why not do both (at least the Cookie would tell him that )?

How would taking the Ring accomplish either? Gandalf might think that with the Ring he could throw down Sauron, but he also knew that he would be taking the Dark Lord's place...I guess he would be the 'Grey Lord?' Frodo would suffer under this dominion, as would many others. Gandalf, a loremaster, knew the price of the stupid/wrong/easy path. I think that he even alludes to past failures...but I can't remember the quote (got to get my brain defragged) and later sees the folly of choosing the wrong path in Saruman. Also, Gandalf is the Prime Motivator. It's not for him to uproot Sauron but to aid others in the task. Think about the Siege of Gondor (the Book version). Just how many times does Gandalf's sword come out of its sheath?

He didn't need the Ring to show people the right path. Theoden was under the spell of a Maia, and Gandalf was still able to set him on the right road. Treebeard acted on his own, not because he was controlled by Gandalf. Aragorn took the Paths as a free man, not as a Ring-controlled robot.

He could take the Ring, and destroy Sauron with it, and maybe find enough strength in his friends to cast the Ring into the Fire. He would then have saved Frodo from that horrible experience, and not have risked his life any further. These thoughts would be in the back of his mind, and he might act on them.

Mayhap, yet I think that the evidence points elsewhere. Aragorn and Gandalf were ready to sacrifice all for the goal, and Frodo was of the same caliber. Surely Gandalf wanted to spare Frodo any pain, yet knew that as Frodo accepted the task freely that he was solely responsible for his own destiny.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

He didn't need the Ring to show people the right path. Theoden was under the spell of a Maia, and Gandalf was still able to set him on the right road. Treebeard acted on his own, not because he was controlled by Gandalf. Aragorn took the Paths as a free man, not as a Ring-controlled robot

Everything the others did was led by fate, if that's what you want to call it, destiny if that makes you happier. Merry and Pippin getting captured by the orcs for instance. And they were the ones who set in motion the acts of the Ents, not Gandalf. Aragorn chose to follow the orcs to rescue the Hobbits, Gandalf didn't force him. They're are a list of things that you could go on about that is all fate (i.e. Bilbo finding the Ring, Frodo receiving the Ring).

I'm sorry to say, even though I have long fought against it, that yes, Gandalf COULD have succumbed to the power of the Ring. But let me make it clear, not for a long, LONG time.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

The lure of the Ring (“Take me, and you can destroy Sauron”) would find its readiest ear in the Wizard…don’t forget, it’s already corrupted one White Wizard…(Why do you think that when Gandalf returned he made sure that he went west toward Aragorn, or -- more precisely -- away from Frodo, when he could have just as easily gone into Mordor to help the Ringbearer? I suspect that deep down, or even not so deep down, he knew that he was the greatest threat to Frodo.)

He turned West because he probably thought that the people in the West would need his help more than Frodo and Sam. I mean, what if he did turn East and go with Frodo and Sam. Théoden would not have recovered and Rohan would utterly be destroyed. Then Gondor would have been enclosed from East, West and South because they wouldn't have one the battle at Helm's Deep and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would persih and the corsairs would not have been stopped. Yes, Saruman would be stopped, but as Treebeard stated before, Ents don't bother with the wars of Men, so they wouldn't have come to the help of Gondor or Rohan. So many things would have happened if Gandalf had turned East. In my belief, I believe he had foresight on what would have happened if he turned East and decided to turn West instead.

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps one way to answer this or resolve the various choices is to ask one question. Yes, the one question!

Which character knows himself best? Who has the greatest self-knowledge? I think that someone who is aware of his own weaknesses, desires, failings, strengths, and needs is likely someone who would be more aware of his own actions and temptations, and who would be more master of himself and less liable to the siren call of the Ring.

And then, who has the next strongest sense of self-awareness? And so on .... until we find the character who has the least or most undeveloped self-knowledge.

One reason why Boromir falls is that, while his heart is noble, he is so self-assured, has questioned himself and his actions so little, that he is unable to see what the Ring is doing to him. In contrast is Frodo, who constantly questions himself. (He thus is not "the weakest link" Frodim (sic).

The problem with this idea, of course, is that it assumes every character is as well developed as any other in the Fellowship. Yet a stab can be made, no?

So, instead of a one anwer poll, we should be filling out a hierarchy. Sort of a Middle earth Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for those of you who know 7th Age psychology.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oh great, now I'm being taken to task for not writing a computer code which would allow for a poll which would allow a hierarchical ranking... sheesh!

But back to matters at hand...

I still think that in all of Tolkien's stories, the one thing that comes through is that the more powerful a being is, the more dangerous he/she/it will be. Sauron is the mightiest being in M-E by the time of the War, and the most perilous person the Fellowship meets is Galadriel. Saruman becomes a terrible threat to the free peoples, and Aragorn -- we are told at one point -- is a dangerous person as well.

After Gandalf becomes the White Wizard, he is the second most powerful being in the West (perhaps third, behind Shelob); as such, he is all the more dangerous. In light of Bb's comments I could easily argue that he has the least self-knowlege insofar as he is not 'really' a self but an embodied being in a physical form. Unlike the others of the Fellowship who have a place in this world -- a society, family, history, body, life -- he is a maiar who does not change, is exempt for the natural processes of living, and who is only visiting Middle-Earth as a messenger from without.

But I think I have flogged this dead wizard long enough...it just really boils my tea to see people who think that Aragorn could have taken the Ring. I mean, how can you think that after Faramir gave it up? Faramir! The ultimate pallid Aragorn-wannabe! If he can resist the Ring, Aragorn certainly can.

(Hmmmmm....I'm dissing Faramir again.....best watch for flying gauntlets....)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm sorry to say, even though I have long fought against it, that yes, Gandalf COULD have succumbed to the power of the Ring. But let me make it clear, not for a long, LONG time.

I would agree that it would happen sometime after the sun became a charcoal briquette...

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I still think that in all of Tolkien's stories, the one thing that comes through is that the more powerful a being is, the more dangerous he/she/it will be.

Well, that at least explains the presence of the Eagles at the opening of the Black gate - Eru was trying to get the Ring!

It's little known but there are whispers that Eru was paying more attention to making a good cup of tea than to what was going on in ME. When he looked down, he saw the Frodo, Sam and Gollum at Sammath Naur and all that he could think to do was to send the Eagles (it's his default action). But even he was thwarted by the act of Gollum, who seems to be some type of rogue entity unbeholden to anyone or anything except himself and his Ring-lust.

But I think I have flogged this dead wizard long enough...it just really boils my tea to see people who think that Aragorn could have taken the Ring. I mean, how can you think that after Faramir gave it up? Faramir! The ultimate pallid Aragorn-wannabe! If he can resist the Ring, Aragorn certainly can.

If the Wizard is off of the list, as is Aragorn, then we're down to the Hobbits (probably not Sam) and the Odd Couple. Flogging yet another dead horse, I still believe that none but Boromir was penned to be a Ring-Taker.

[Mister Underhill]

You've made a powerful case for Gandalf, Fordie, though balanced against your analysis is very strong evidence of Gandalf's self-knowledge/self-control in this matter: his knowledge of the Ring's whereabouts -- easily within his reach -- for decades; his chance to claim it not once but twice -- first when it is left more or less in his stewardship, albeit briefly, when Bilbo departs, and second when Frodo openly offers it to him.

Of course we are to imagine some desperate extremity in Mordor, no doubt -- Nazgûl on the hunt, the Ring's power waxing, etc. In fact, probably the most dangerous moment of all is Shelob's lair, when Frodo appears dead. Now there's a breaking point if ever there was one. Suppose the Fellowship were still intact then, with the Bearer down. Who takes the Ring?

I agree with your point that the more powerful and ambitious are more easily tempted, but I think you're underestimating a few factors that still weigh in Gandalf's favor. His knowledge, having passed through sacrifice, death, and regeneration, that selfish will to power is the antithesis of victory in Middle-earth. His long experience with resisting the Ring's lure. His knowledge, both as a Ring-bearer and a Maia, of the consequences of claiming the Ring. And -- and I think this is perhaps most important of all -- his resources of power, via both his native power as a "wizard" and his possession of a Ring of his own, which give him hope of successfully contending with the Enemy and/or his agents without the extra power of the One Ring.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I buy your thesis re: Aragorn. Who was it who actually sought a direct confrontation with Sauron? Why, Aragorn, of course. And was this a hasty or improvised course of action? Nay:

'Dangerous indeed, but not to all,' said Aragorn. 'There is one who may claim it by right. For this assuredly is the palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it.'

Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it.

'Receive it, lord!' he said: 'in earnest of other things that shall be given back. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it – yet! Be wary!'

'When have I been hasty or unwary, who have waited and prepared for so many long years?' said Aragorn.

'Never yet. Do not then stumble at the end of the road,' answered Gandalf.

Is it possible that Aragorn's sense of entitlement, of mission to oppose Sauron mano y mano, would be his undoing in the end, at the last extremity?

Maybe. Maybe.

I'm not voting yet because the jury's still out as far as I'm concerned. But I'm leaning away from Gandalf...

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

Well, that at least explains the presence of the Eagles at the opening of the Black gate - Eru was trying to get the Ring!

OH MY GOD!! IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!!!! Oh my, what if he's controlling eveything we say!?!? Oops, there goes my insanity again.

Originally Posted by alatar

If the Wizard is off of the list, as is Aragorn, then we're down to the Hobbits (probably not Sam) and the Odd Couple. Flogging yet another dead horse, I still believe that none but Boromir was penned to be a Ring-Taker.

We've made up a defence for Gandalf and Aragorn, so who's next? Because I complely agree with you that Boromir was doomed from the start, and no one else. I really wish there was a "no one" option, even if Frodo did eventually succumb to the power of the Ring.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I think one key component that some if not all of you are leaving out is the power of the Ring. Let us be clear. In the end, at the Crack of Doom, NO ONE could resist it. No one. Not Gandalf, not Aragorn, and as we see in the book, not Frodo. The will of the Ring rules supreme. Indeed, though Tolkien may think differently (and he has every right to be wrong if he wants to, ), I think that the way everything happened in the book was the ONLY WAY it could have happened, for the Ring to be destroyed.

Things could not have happened differently than they did in the books. Yes, I suppose you can still ask "what if" but in reality there is no "if." IF the Fellowship does not break, then Merry and Pippin will not spark the wrath of the Ents on Isengard, and Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf will not heal King Theoden and win the Battle of the Hornburg. In which case Isengard will conquer Rohan and attack Gondor. Since Gondor does not have the aid of Gandalf and Aragorn, or of Rohan for that matter, it will fall quickly. And when that time comes, there is no longer any hope.

The Fellowship HAD to break. If it did not, Middle-earth was doomed. Boromir, in trying to take the Ring from Frodo, was saving Middle-earth, though unknowingly. The will of Eru prevails.

OK, I've given the lecture, you all have sat back and listened patiently, now continue with the discussion. It's still fun to ponder "what ifs" like this one. I have not made up my mind, but Fordim's argument for Gandalf currently seems very strong. Pray continue!