Who would have fallen?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I think its completely possible that the Ring picks its targets, and tries to work on certain individuals. If Boromir wasn't there, who would the Ring have gone to work on?

I thoroughly agree. And, if one discounts Gandalf (since he was on a level with Sauron and therefore could, as Tolkien suggests, potentially have mastered the Ring sufficiently to use it against him), who was the next most powerful member of the Fellowship, both physically and politically? The answer seems obvious to me.

Also, if we regard the Ring as a character in its own right (and I believe that we should), would it not take great glee in corrupting the descendant of he who separated it from its Master in the first place?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I thoroughly agree. And, if one discounts Gandalf (since he was on a level with Sauron and therefore could, as Tolkien suggests, potentially have mastered the Ring sufficiently to use it against him), who was the next most powerful member of the Fellowship, both physically and politically? The answer seems obvious to me.

It isn't a question of power, either physically or politically. It is a question of self-knowledge, or rather, lack of self-knowledge.

Or are you suggesting that the Ring seeks out he who would provide the best bit of sport for him (assuming the Ring as a character is a he), which then might be someone nearer his/its/her own level of self-control/ knowledge. Is the Ring's delight in the sport or in the victory?

[davem]

The Ring is at once the single most powerful object in Middle-earth & the least powerful, because it can do nothing on its own - it needs a wearer to corrupt to its will. It would 'choose' to corrupt the most powerful person, because its questionable how much power it could actually bestow on an individual. It seems to work by twisting the individual's mind so that they mis-use their own innate 'power'. If everyone was to take Faramir's approach & leave it by the wayside, it would be the single most useless thing in M-e. (Inspired by the essay 'Tolkien, King Alfred & Boethius' in Tolkien Studies vol 2).

In other words, like Gandalf, it cannot 'burn snow'. It has to find someone with the potential to be corrupted. As Bb states, its down to the self knowledge of the individual. Neither Faramir nor Aragorn are seducible because of this. Not because they are incorruptible, but because, like Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond, they know they are & so would not listen to its call. As I said, if everyone was as wise as them the Ring could just be thrown away. It has to be destroyed because not everyone is.

[Lalwendë]

And yet the most horrible thing about the way the Ring works is that if you were Faramir or Aragorn and you knew that you ought not to pick it up, you would still not be able to leave it be. Because you would know the risk in leaving it where it was.

What would you do? Guard it and send a colleague to get help? Then you would run the risk of a weaker person coming to the rescue and just taking it. Or you could indeed just walk away, but gnawing away at you would be the knowledge that you had left this Ring lying around where anyone could find it.

The only way it can be left is if it lies somewhere it is unlikely to be discovered. But where would this be? It lay in the depths of the Anduin for centuries and it was still found. And some knew it was there and tried to find it as they were so interested in it. Then it lay under the Misty Mountains and even there it was found.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It isn't a question of power, either physically or politically. It is a question of self-knowledge, or rather, lack of self-knowledge.

Mental strength (whether that be self-knowledge, wisdom, strength of will or whatever) is relevant to the degree to which a member of the Fellowship might be able to resist the lure of the Ring were it to call to him. Physical and/or political power is relevant to the question of what the Ring might be able to achieve once one of them had succumbed to it. If we are considering which "victim" the Ring would be likely to select, all of these qualities are relevant. I consider Aragorn to be a prime target.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is the Ring's delight in the sport or in the victory?

I would say that the "sport" would be incidental to the victory - a bonus, if you like.

Originally Posted by davem

If everyone was to take Faramir's approach & leave it by the wayside, it would be the single most useless thing in M-e.

But Tolkien tells us that (with the exception of Tom Bombadil) there is no such person in Middle-earth. Given sufficient time and exposure, no one could resist the lure of the Ring. I suppose that you could draw a distinction between the Ringbearer and those who accompany him, but that is merely a matter of degree to my mind. The Ringbearer's exposure is (significantly) greater and therefore requires a greater strength of will to resist. But we can see from what happened to Boromir that it can work effectively on those who are with the Ringbearer for prolonged periods.

Originally Posted by davem

Neither Faramir nor Aragorn are seducible because of this. Not because they are incorruptible, but because, like Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond, they know they are & so would not listen to its call. As I said, if everyone was as wise as them the Ring could just be thrown away. It has to be destroyed because not everyone is.

It had to be destroyed because no one is. I am not saying that Aragorn lacked self-knowledge, wisdom or strength of will. He had all of these qualities in spades. But each member of the Fellowship had qualities that could assist them to resist the lure of the Ring. They would all have been able to resist for a good length of time, perhaps even sufficient time to get them to Mount Doom. The question is which of them, after Boromir, would have buckled first.

There are a two things in particular about Aragorn that make him the most vulnerable in my eyes. First and foremost, he was a Man (albeit one with Elven blood). And time and time again, Tolkien makes the point that, of all the (originally good) races, Men are mentally the weakest. It was Men who were persuaded to serve both Morgoth and Sauron and it was Men who succumbed to the Rings of power. Not Elves and not Dwarves. (Although some Dwarves are said to have served Sauron, I see this as less because they could be bent to his will and more because they believed that they could get something out of it.) As for Hobbits, they are noted for their indomitability of spirit and their particular resistance to the kind of temptation that the Ring represented. And it was Aragorn's forefather who was unable to destroy the Ring when he cut it from Sauron's finger and who instead kept it for himself.

Secondly, Aragorn's wisdom, most particularly his knowledge of the nature and power of the Ring, made him vulnerable to it. Gandalf recognised this, and that is why he refused to bear the Ring. But would he have been able to do so, to resist the lure of the Ring, had he accompanied Frodo on the last stages of his Quest? Perhaps Gandalf would have been able to resist. But I do not think that Aragorn would have been able to.

[Mister Underhill]

Adding to Saucepan's case is the fact that Aragorn alone of the Fellowship has a legitimate claim on the Ring. You can almost imagine him being able to give the palantír speech I cited above about the Ring with only a few changes in the wording.

[Lyta_Underhill]

originally posted by Lalwende:

What would you do? Guard it and send a colleague to get help? Then you would run the risk of a weaker person coming to the rescue and just taking it. Or you could indeed just walk away, but gnawing away at you would be the knowledge that you had left this Ring lying around where anyone could find it.

Perhaps the question is not "what selfish desire does the Ring offer fulfillment for for each individual," but rather, "what is the path of the Ring to his/her heart?" Gandalf, in fact, knows the path of the Ring to his heart and confides this knowledge to Frodo in Bag End. Whether or not Gandalf has the strength to wield the Ring or not is irrelevant. It is a danger that he knows as well as any of his fellows, and perhaps he questions Aragorn's ability deep down when he admonishes him not to "stumble at the end of the road." If he and Aragorn stood side by side with the Ring untaken between them, which of them would wield it most wisely? Gandalf would know in his heart that Aragorn did not have the power to wield the Ring, and if he let him take it, he would be dooming all of Middle Earth. But then we come to the question of whether Gandalf could destroy the Ring. "I will have such need of it," he says to Frodo at Bag End. At the Cracks of Doom, his need may encompass saving Middle Earth from Aragorn taking the Ring, for he knows Aragorn would fall, and he, Gandalf would be right there, the Steward of Middle Earth, failing in his task, dooming Aragorn by allowing him to fall. Certainly, if Gandalf had been there with Frodo, the danger of this happening would be even greater, for even though he thought Frodo the "best Hobbit in the Shire," he would still have doubts to his strength and sure knowledge that the dear fellow didn't have the strength to forbear claiming the Ring (and he was right, too). Here I am arguing for Gandalf's fall to the Ring, but I merely say that the path to his heart is the same as the hobbits' path to his heart--compassion.

At the Crack of Doom, Gandalf's challenge would have been the greatest, as he knows his abilities and those of his fellows. If he himself cannot destroy the Ring, then he may decide he must take it in order to save the others from it and from Sauron.

Cheers!
Lyta, just knocking off some thoughts late at night...

[davem]

Originally Posted by SPM

As for Hobbits, they are noted for their indomitability of spirit and their particular resistance to the kind of temptation that the Ring represented.

Of course, from a more practical point of view it could be argued that, as the Ring cannot actually bestow any 'extra' power on an individual, only corrupt them to mis-use the 'power' they already have, putting it into the hands of a Hobbit was the samrtest thing Eru caould have arranged.

Weakness can be a useful thing to exploit if you're a Deity trying to save your world.

(See what happens when you hang around with cynics.... )

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

... putting it into the hands of a Hobbit was the samrtest thing Eru caould have arranged.

I agree. Hence, my list of the order in which each member of the Fellowship should have taken the Ring if Frodo had fallen is different to my list of the order in which they would have succumbed:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Pippin - Merry - Sam - Gimli - Legolas - Aragorn - (Boromir) - Gandalf

It was suggested on a thread which considered this question (and which I unfortunately cannot now find) that the best "B-Team" for the journey into Mordor would have been Pippin/Merry, with Merry playing Sam to Pippin's Frodo. I tend to agree.