“Not all those who wander are lost.”

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

davem, I bet your map of the world is still covered with pink.

I was of course only referring to cultures that have links to the sea in some way. Cultures that have never known the sea would have some other 'natural' image that served the same purpose - the Desert, Mountains, plains, Forest etc.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I was of course only referring to cultures that have links to the sea in some way. Cultures that have never known the sea would have some other 'natural' image that served the same purpose - the Desert, Mountains, plains, Forest etc.

Oh of course, absolutely, and by all means.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh of course, absolutely, and by all means.

Well, the sea would be a meaningless concept to anyone who had no knowledge of it. If someone had never know the sea was asked about it they would simply be confused. Therefore, if we're talking about what the sea means to cultures we can only speak about those who would understand what it is.

I was (& am), also, speaking about Middle-earth, avoiding dragging primary world baggage into the discussion. My references to Christianity were attempts at 'applicability'.

[Boromir88]

I've been pondering (though these are just my thoughts, no one has to agree, and I always encourage feedback ). This thread may be able to explain why Faramir was able to resist the Ring and Boromir wasn't. I think there's many things that go into Faramir being able to resist, but all and all, it's been sort of an uknown/opinionated topic. Numenorean blood ran truer in him, he was wiser in lore, he learned from his brother's mistakes...etc, while I think these all contribute to Faramir being able to resist the Ring, I think there's something missing, and this thread may have just explained it. I mean Faramir doesn't even show signs of being severely tempted, he comes and flat out denies it.

I think it lies with the important phrase of Faramir's..."Not if Minas Tirith were burning to the ground would I use it."

Now, this I don't think shows that Faramir could give a rat's behind about Gondor, but I think it's just Faramir accepting he can't control what happens. As being discussed, there's a higher power at work, and accepting that you can't be in control is a key to spiritual healing.

The Ring is all about control and controlling what happens. Faramir realizes that he's not in control, and that he can't control what happens (nor does he want to control what happens) hence his fond denial of the Ring.

Where his brother wants to be in control of what happens and his strong pull to the Ring is because he wants to be in control. Where Faramir's strong resistance to the Ring comes from his unwillingness, and KNOWING the he can't control. It's not up to him.

[tar-ancalime]

I've been ruminating on a slightly different thought about wanderers and non-wanderers (homebodies?) in Tolkien. I'll post it here and move it if anyone thinks it's thread-hijacking.

It seems that frequently (if not always) characters who are wanderers are paired with characters who stay put.

Obvious example that has already been mentioned here: Gandalf and Saruman.

But wait, there's more...

The Ents and the Entwives. Treebeard has been described above as changing from static to active, but I disagree with that characterization. He has always been active, always been a wanderer; all that changes in Book Three is that he decides to become involved in the affairs of the outside world. It is, in my opinion, irrelevant to his status as a traveler/wanderer.

Aldarion and Erendis, two of my favorite characters. I think I've posted before about the parallel I see between their story and the Ent/Entwife story.

Among the Firstborn: those who traveled to Valinor and those who refused.

Aragorn and Boromir. Now, hear me out on this one, as I know it's rather a stretch. Aragorn is obviously the wanderer, and while Boromir does get around, I submit that he's a homebody at heart. He's a little like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz--not sure how he got to where he is, and totally focused on getting home. He displays a startling lack of knowledge about the world outside Gondor, more than once dismissing real places and people as myths (Fangorn/Ents, Lorien/Galadriel). Again, as with Treebeard, the Ring and the War are irrelevant to his status as a homebody, except that the dream (which almost always came to Faramir) was the impetus for his journey to Rivendell.

Bilbo and Frodo. Another possible pairing of hobbits is Frodo (wanderer) and Sam (homebody), but I think it's a false projection of Sam's strong association with the Shire. Throughout the story, it's Sam who wants to have adventures, see mountains and Elves. Sam isn't really a good model for either a wanderer or a homebody. Frodo, on the other hand, is not at all eager to leave the Shire and in fact delays to his peril. He's like Boromir--a reluctant traveler who would rather have stayed home. Bilbo (Lord of the Rings Bilbo, not Hobbit Bilbo), on the other hand, leaves home out of wanderlust. He misses the Road. He's the appropriate pairing for Frodo.

I'd really like to find a common thread among all these paired characters, as I think there are too many pairs to be a coincidence, but I haven't come up with anything yet. Thoughts?

I was thinking that perhaps it's the wanderers who survive--i.e. Treebeard remains while the Entwives are lost, Aragorn ascends to the throne and we all know what happened to Boromir, Gandalf wins his battle and Saruman meets a most undignified end, etc. But I don't know. This part of it (the all-important conclusion to what is otherwise merely a set of observations) eludes me, and I'd love to have some feedback.

Again, I apologize if I'm hijacking this thread, as I realize I'm going in a different direction than the previous posters.

[Boromir88]

Good thoughts Tar-Ancalime, later I may have more to think of, but just a quick thing to say...

Frodo, on the other hand, is not at all eager to leave the Shire and in fact delays to his peril. He's like Boromir--a reluctant traveler who would rather have stayed home.

I think the difference though between Frodo and Boromir, is that Frodo is willing to give up the Shire. Though he is reluctant, he makes the ultimate sacrifice of carrying the burden and throwing aside his desire to go back home. He was able to put past his own selfish wants and figuratively carry the fate of Middle-earth.

In Boromir's case he seems to make it pretty clear he has full intentions are to go back to Minas Tirith. Even with his death his body happens to make it back to Minas Tirith. He doesn't put aside his wants like Frodo is able to.

In many ways I would consider Boromir more closely tied to Gollum in this matter. Though Boromir has travelled around (he's been to Rohan a few times, and as we see him in Rivendell) there are things to show that he's not the true "wanderer" like say Gandalf.

As you've mentioned he has little knowledge of things outside Gondor and pays little respect to things he doesn't understand. I think his travel to Rivendell can show that Boromir isn't a true wanderer either, he gets lost. "Not all wanderers are lost, but are some of them?"

As was being discussed with Gollum, he wandered around a bit, and roamed from place to place, was very familiar with the geography, but that doesn't necessarily make him a true wanderer. He wandered for his own greed and selfishness, to ge the ring back, so he could go back and hide.

I think Boromir wanders for the same reason. He goes to Rivendell to get an answer to a riddle he had in a dream. Could this be selfish? I think to Boromir it can be (and I believe this is the first time I've spoken bad about the guy so if I start crying just ignore me)...He goes there to get answers on Isildur's Bane and the sword-that-was-broken, and while he does go there for answers he rejects the answers that are given. He doesn't agree with what the Council has to say on the ring, and he gives this somewhat of a doubtful response to Aragorn...

"Yet we are hard pressed, and the sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope - if such a thing could indeed retur out of the shadows of the past." He looked again at Aragorn, and doubt was in his eyes."~Council of Elrond

There's another quote in there where Boromir says that if Aragorn merely hadn't inherited an heirloom or if he could wield it like the kings of old, but can't find it right now and it's getting late. So, does this make Boromir a wanderer because he went to Rivendell searching for answers. I wouldn't say so, because the answers he was given, he rejected, and found fault in them, didn't agree with them.

I think we can split the "wanderers" category. There are those who are true wanderers. That don't wander for their selfish-greed, or self-gain, but do it to help and aid those in need. Best example Gandalf, or an Aragorn.

Then there are those "wanderers who ARE lost." They wander yet they do it for their own gain, not to the benefit of others....Gollum and it pains me to admit...Boromir.

[The Perky Ent]

Interesting thread. I didn't really start thinking until I read the fixed character list: Saruman, Denethor, and...Bombadil. According to Esty's post, change is (and BTW, i'm sure i'm analyzing this wrong) a beneficial and essential thing to a good character, and that he who changes sees more than others. Now, i'm not half as smart as most of you here (you can blame it on the Coca-Cola and Juicy Fruit), but is Tom Bombadil, a Tolkien character who doesn't change, weakened in sight? In my opinion, he seems to have a rounded mind. By merely bringing up the issue of Tom Bombadil, i'm dragging so many variables about himself, like his history and what he actually is. Despite his dancing frenzies, I can't help but feel that in his past he was experienced in the events of the world, and knows what's going on in the world. But then again...maybe he just dances because he knows nothing can hurt him (Because we all know Bombadil is actually a valar in disguise :P)

Oh, and Wormtail is a changer. I'm sorry I don't write as articulatly as everyone in here, but I just don't possess your skill, knowlege, age, experience, and attention span. Just curious about my Bombadil question (which has so many holes in its argument you'd think it's raining when you pour water through it).

Perky