The battle of Helm's Deep: All the Elves were killed? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kath · 08-30-2005, 09:42 AM

alatar your points are all good and to be honest I never saw how PJ could consider Elf involvement as it would surely put the battle in the Rohirrim's favour. The only thing I can think of to explain the severe lack of dead orc bodies is that most of them were outside the walls, a place that was not watched by camera after the orcs broke in. It is quite possible that all those orcs killed by Elf arrows were there but because the camera wasn't on this area we didn't see them.

However I have no way of rationalising the switch from arrows to swords, to me it just seems plain stupid.

alatar · 08-30-2005, 10:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Kath

alatar your points are all good and to be honest I never saw how PJ could consider Elf involvement as it would surely put the battle in the Rohirrim's favour.

Agreed. Think that PJ was in bit of a bind - one part of him wanted more, more, MORE! elves so that the walls and the background looked manned (elved?), yet on the other hand this many elves would have decimated the Uruks, and so he made them ineffectual as he had to get rid of all of them and continually make the battle look desperate.

Quote:

The only thing I can think of to explain the severe lack of dead orc bodies is that most of them were outside the walls, a place that was not watched by camera after the orcs broke in. It is quite possible that all those orcs killed by Elf arrows were there but because the camera wasn't on this area we didn't see them.

Will have to watch it yet again, but don't think so. The initial volley shows some Uruks falling, but after that the slain Uruks seems to disappear - did some 'video game' code sneak into Massive, making the fallen fade away? Would have liked seeing the Uruks dealing with their own slain brethren, which could have been used to show again the contrast between the Free Folk and the Enemy.

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However I have no way of rationalising the switch from arrows to swords, to me it just seems plain stupid.

Much agreed. You're an elf, you got a bow, your arrows are lethal, you're sitting on the high ground as an enemy approaches through a somewhat narrow opening below and so you (a) switch to your sword and rush pell-mell down the slope onto the waiting spears of the enemy or (b) loose every arrow you've got into the approaching enemy, encumbering them as they try to enter amongst their slain.

Choosing (a) may mean that you have a career awaiting you as a screen-writer

.

Thanks Kath.

mormegil · 08-30-2005, 11:01 AM

We might be given the elves a bit too much credit. One could also say that if all men there were even a quarter as lethal as Aragorn then the battle would have been different. Well that would be true but all men, and elves, are different in their abilities.

If memory serves me, most of the elf archers were removed a bit from the wall when they were firing their volleys of arrows into the uruks. This is of course due to the finite wall space and the fact that you need some non-archer units repelling the ladders and grappling hooks. So we have archers in the back who are more or less randomly shooting into armored uruks. That would greatly diminish their effectiveness.

In regard to the elves even being there I think it was well done in the movie. It was at a point when men's case was hopeless and there seemed no way out. After you feel their despair, we see a small band of fair elves arrive and everybody's spirit improves. I felt like Aragorn did at the time. Complete despair to sudden gladness and a new found hope. I loved that part in the movie and found it very emotional and vitalizing.

Neurion · 09-11-2005, 03:43 PM

Well, considering the amount of time spent between HD scenes in the films, the Elves would have to be knocking down virtually every Uruk who came at them to avoid simply being swept away by sheer force of numbers.

What annoys me is that in many of the background shots, you can see fairly clearly that the Uruks can't match the speed and skill of the Elves with their weapons, and yet all the director ever chooses to focus on is Legolas wiping out a few more or the Uruk-Hai playing "Hulk-Smash".

08-30-2005, 09:42 AM	#1
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	alatar your points are all good and to be honest I never saw how PJ could consider Elf involvement as it would surely put the battle in the Rohirrim's favour. The only thing I can think of to explain the severe lack of dead orc bodies is that most of them were outside the walls, a place that was not watched by camera after the orcs broke in. It is quite possible that all those orcs killed by Elf arrows were there but because the camera wasn't on this area we didn't see them. However I have no way of rationalising the switch from arrows to swords, to me it just seems plain stupid. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

08-30-2005, 11:01 AM	#3
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	We might be given the elves a bit too much credit. One could also say that if all men there were even a quarter as lethal as Aragorn then the battle would have been different. Well that would be true but all men, and elves, are different in their abilities. If memory serves me, most of the elf archers were removed a bit from the wall when they were firing their volleys of arrows into the uruks. This is of course due to the finite wall space and the fact that you need some non-archer units repelling the ladders and grappling hooks. So we have archers in the back who are more or less randomly shooting into armored uruks. That would greatly diminish their effectiveness. In regard to the elves even being there I think it was well done in the movie. It was at a point when men's case was hopeless and there seemed no way out. After you feel their despair, we see a small band of fair elves arrive and everybody's spirit improves. I felt like Aragorn did at the time. Complete despair to sudden gladness and a new found hope. I loved that part in the movie and found it very emotional and vitalizing. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

09-11-2005, 03:43 PM	#4
Neurion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs Posts: 258	Well, considering the amount of time spent between HD scenes in the films, the Elves would have to be knocking down virtually every Uruk who came at them to avoid simply being swept away by sheer force of numbers. What annoys me is that in many of the background shots, you can see fairly clearly that the Uruks can't match the speed and skill of the Elves with their weapons, and yet all the director ever chooses to focus on is Legolas wiping out a few more or the Uruk-Hai playing "Hulk-Smash". __________________ ____________________________________ "And a cold voice rang forth from the blade. Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."