The Root of all Evil.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Eledhewin Ilanora

Lets talk about Gollum? Do you think he was tuned into an evil being for gold?
Nope.i believe the root of evil in LOTR is the greed for power. Power to control, power to manipulate, Power to destroy, Power to be invincible and untouchable etc etc.Power!!!!!!

I have to differ a little about Gollum. It was the gold that caused him to murder Deagol in the first place but it was not power. Even he didn't try to usurp his grandmother when he had the ring.

Originally Posted by Nuranar

The key operator there is that the money itself isn't the problem. It's the untoward lust for it that leads to evil.

It all leads back to lust (of whatever). Smeagol lusted the ring itself and murdered then he lusted secrets to use against his own kin that led to his outcast.
Even 'power' is not listed in the 7 deadliest sins because 'power' can be used for good, but 'lust' is listed becausae anything we desire to obsession is never good.

[Nuranar]

Power and money (or gold) aren't synonymous - but it's remarkable how closely related they are. We all want more money than we've got; if you had it, what would you do with it? Buy things. Keep increasing the money and you can buy more and bigger things, and eventually you can buy anything. If that's all money can do, why are there so many multi-millionaires? With great money comes great power. And power leads to more money. They support each other.

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

Even 'power' is not listed in the 7 deadliest sins because 'power' can be used for good, but 'lust' is listed becausae anything we desire to obsession is never good.

Very good point. Power itself, like money, is no evil; after all, try to abolish power and you abolish government. (Some might argue that's not a bad thing - but anarchy puts power in the hands of the rich, forceful, and/or physically strong. Power doesn't just disappear.) It's the abuse of power that's the problem: tyranny, oppression, injustice, cruelty. And the love of money can be a root of that particular evil.

Are there any instances of a rise to power taking place without money and not resulting in wealth?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nuranar

Are there any instances of a rise to power taking place without money and not resulting in wealth?

How about Gandhi..... of course such people are so dangerous they get killed... they subvert the way the world works too much .......

I think power is bound up with freedom. We want freedom but exercising our freedom often makes other people less free - "Freedom without justice grows up into slavery"

[Nuranar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think power is bound up with freedom. We want freedom but exercising our freedom often makes other people less free

I remember reading how the U.S. founders really struggled with the idea of greater freedom. For me, "freedom" and "liberty" don't mean quite the same thing. To me, liberty implies less control, both external and personal. The next step is license. Witness the French Revolution. It's the paradox that true freedom isn't possible without the rule of law. Power isn't going to go away; it's just a question of distributing it in the best way for everyone.

I think we're wandering a bit, though. *blush*

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, why does Tolkien choose gold to tie in with "evil?" What is it specifically about gold that Tolkien says it tends to have an evil trend? And why is Silver not evil? What makes it pure and good and not connected to evil the way gold is?

We've established that it's not the gold/money/valuable itself that's evi. And Mithalwen pointed out that silver and gold aren't necessarily opposites, just valued and used differently. So it's either Morgoth's power within gold, or the elemental lust for gold, that leads to evil. I personally still hold to the second; gold is not always a definite force for evil, whereas when it does seem to cause problems, there's a definite someone who's wanting it too badly.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The most notable conflicts were over jewels (Silmarils, Arkenstone..)

This supports the original quote: The love of money is A root of all kinds of evil. The Silmarils and the Arkenstone were not evil in and of themselves. Perhaps their value and worth cast a "spell" of sorts. But in the end, conflict came about because of people who desired them beyond wisdom or reason. In Tolkien's world, perhaps the love of great jewels is another root of evil.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well others have beaten me to correcting the quotation but I would point out Galadriel's blessing of Gimli - that his hand should flow with gold but over him gold should have no dominion?

That Galadriel had to say that 'gold should have no dominion' over Gimli emphasizes in a way that gold, or the love of it, really has the tendency to corrupt. It was necessary to say it so that her blessing would not be marred; Gimli would just have gold in his hands (and perhaps be generous with it, as the word flow implies) yet not succumb to a continual lust for more of it, as most people who come into possession of gold do.

[Essex]

The way I read Tolkien's works is that there is the possibility for evil in all of us. i.e. Evil is inherent in eveyone and everything. It is in our day to day actions that we sweep aside our temptation to fall into this evil. In the Christian Faith, even Satan was once an Angel, who finally sucumbed to Evil.

I see this view of 'inherent evil' most clearly in the Silmarillion. I think that Elves are, at times, a vindictive, nasty, zealous race of beings, not as a group of higher, more morally correct people (Angelic if you want) as I saw them before I read the Silmarillion.

After reading the book, I realised that they are no worse or better than any other race on Middle-earth, and are supceptible to Evil along with everyone else.

[Gurthang]

Yes, I agree Essex. The elves seemed to be a 'higher' race when I read LotR. Yet the Silmarillion really evens the playing field. The only thing that I think really makes the difference between elves and men is that the elves don't follow after a Dark Lord, whereas some Men do. The elves knew Morgoth at his cruelest, and so hated him and never trusted him, and likewise to his servant, Sauron. Yet Men did not ever truly see Morgoth and so when he came first to them they trusted him, and followed him into darkness. The Elves never followed an evil leader, but Men did/do.

But I would like to point out that the elves 'inherent evil', as Essex called it, was brought out by the Silmarils being stolen. Many of the Elves so lusted the Silmarils that they were willing to do almost anything to get them back, including the Kinslaying. That points seems to point back to the fact that the love of wealth, jewels in this case, was the root of evil. Both in the fact that Morgoth lusted the Silmarils and that the Elves were willing to do anything to get their beloved treasure back.