The Root of all Evil.

[Gurthang]

Yes, I agree Essex. The elves seemed to be a 'higher' race when I read LotR. Yet the Silmarillion really evens the playing field. The only thing that I think really makes the difference between elves and men is that the elves don't follow after a Dark Lord, whereas some Men do. The elves knew Morgoth at his cruelest, and so hated him and never trusted him, and likewise to his servant, Sauron. Yet Men did not ever truly see Morgoth and so when he came first to them they trusted him, and followed him into darkness. The Elves never followed an evil leader, but Men did/do.

But I would like to point out that the elves 'inherent evil', as Essex called it, was brought out by the Silmarils being stolen. Many of the Elves so lusted the Silmarils that they were willing to do almost anything to get them back, including the Kinslaying. That points seems to point back to the fact that the love of wealth, jewels in this case, was the root of evil. Both in the fact that Morgoth lusted the Silmarils and that the Elves were willing to do anything to get their beloved treasure back.

[Lolidir]

As has been said before the greater evil in LOTR, and in perhaps the world today, is power. In LOTR Sauron is not lusting the gold ring, but the power it holds. If he gets it back then he can regain his physical form and control the world. What do you need to control? Power. Saruman, he also wanted the ring for its power, ordered that the haflings be brought to him. Why was this? Do you think that a wizard, who could strike fear in the hearts of people, wanted gold? It was the power that the ring possesed. And did Gandalf not say in chapter 2 of the Fellowship, The Shadow of the Past, "with that power I should have power too great and terrible" when Frodo offered him the ring? The quote continues a little more, but for the sake of this deiscussion that should be enough. So if you think about it, the real evil in LOTR is the lust for power, not gold. Gold is merely a symbol for it as money is for today. People place things, or objects as symbols of power. eg. the Crowned jewles of England or the Silmarils. The evil in LOTR is the lust for power.

[Bêthberry]

Oh my, Boro, I clicked on this thinking it might be a discussion of the source of Old Man Willow's evil intent against the hobbits.

[Gurthang]

But, Lolidir, is it not true that money is power?

[Lolidir]

The root of evil in LOTR and possibly in the world today, is the lust for power and the way you use that power. For instance Sauron had power and chose to take over the world, only leading him to lust more power and so on and so forth. Gandalf, on the other hand had great power but used it to do good. So its not just power, but the lust for power and the way you use your power.


It is in today's world money is power, but why would gold or money hold any value to Sauron or Saruman? Sauron was only a spirit so to speak, and Saruman was a wizard. What use of money would a spirit of a wizard have? That is the point I guess I am trying to make. Sauron only needs the ring back to gain his form and be all powerfull again. It's not the fact that the ring is gold. And Saruman knows the power that the ring has. Does anyone see where I am going with this? I mean to me it makes sence but does anyone else see it?

Besides Power is measured in a lot of things, whether it is land in the old days, money in many of todays cultures, but in others like the tribes of the jungles its a totally different thing like sheep or cows or something.

[Nuranar]

Lolidir, I understand what you're saying. Boromir88 originally asked several questions:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, why does Tolkien choose gold to tie in with "evil?" What is it specifically about gold that Tolkien says it tends to have an evil trend? And why is Silver not evil? What makes it pure and good and not connected to evil the way gold is?

But he was assuming that gold (or an intemperate desire for it) is the root of evil in Tolkien's world. You say:

Originally Posted by Lolidir

The root of evil in LOTR and possibly in the world today, is the lust for power and the way you use that power.

You also point out that gold or money as such is of little use to Sauron or Saruman; what they strove for was power. At least, this is how I understand your argument.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

is it not true that money is power?

In many ways gold/money can be power, and vice versa. But I think we're getting a little confused. That is not a mutally inclusive definition. You can't write

Money = Power

and leave it at that. Think of a Venn diagram: Two overlapping circles, one labeled Money and the other Power. The area where they overlap does represent Money = Power. Think of Big Business. But the areas that don't overlap show those circumstances where one does not give the other. Money without Power is Robinson Crusoe and his gold: On a deserted island, money doesn't mean power. It means nothing. Power without Money is an even smaller area, but it's there. I think C. S. Lewis wrote about his experience at school as being one; as a society it was virtually moneyless but there was nevertheless a rigid, even vicious, power hierarchy.

All that said, I don't think that the desire for either gold/money or power is THE root of evil, either in Tolkien's world or this. Honestly, I cannot separate my analysis from the true version of the saying: "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil." I believe this is completely true. Take this as my beginning assumption, if you will. There are two key points that haven't been really discussed:

1. It says A root. Implication: There is more than one root of evil. You cannot attribute all evil to the love of money. If it could, "a" would have been "the."
2. It says "all kinds of evil." - not one kind, not all evil. NASB says "sorts." This is a general statement - "Loving money can lead to lots of bad things." Not one specfic bad thing. Not every bad thing. This, too, implies that there is more than one root of evil.

I think that both the desire for gold and the desire for power are roots of evil, in this and other worlds. B88 and Lolidir have given examples of both. The common thread, though, is that immoderate lust for something not yet possessed, for something more. So if the love of power is also a root of all sorts of evil, what else is there? Are there other examples of evil that aren't attributable to a love for either power or money?

[Lolidir]

Originally Posted by Nuranar

The common thread, though, is that immoderate lust for something not yet possessed, for something more. So if the love of power is also a root of all sorts of evil, what else is there? Are there other examples of evil that aren't attributable to a love for either power or money?

Nicely put. The lust for something not yet possessed is A root of evil. I was just watching CSI tonight and it was about a case in witch a young girl was taken advantage of, if you get what I'm saying. In that case it was a lust for something entirely different from power or money.

As for other roots of evil, I think it is a matter of how a person's mind works. If they have a conscience or not, how far they are willing to go to get what they want. Whether thats another root or the same one expressed in different words I dont know, but thats another way to look at it.