The mouth of Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

09-08-2005, 07:16 PM

I have not read the books but i have seen the movies. People keep talking about a mouth of sauron and i have no clue wat they r talkin about.

Glirdan · 09-08-2005, 07:28 PM

Here, I'll try and explain it as best as I can without my books.

After the Battle of the Last Alliance when Isildur took up the Ring and claimed it for his own, Sauron wasn't utterly destroyed. His spirit fled his body and hid in the East for a time. Then he lived in Dul-Guldur(? I forget how to spell it propoerly, if that isn't the way) and got the Nazgul, that is the Black Riders, to make Mordor ready for his return because he knew of the coming of the Istari (the Wizards) and that the White Council was going to attempt to overthrow him. Thus, he feigned retreat and once again took up abode in Mordor. I don't know how long afterwards, he took someone to "be his mouth" and tell everyone what he wanted done. How, I forget. If I missed someting in my explaination, maybe one of the more knowledgeable(?) members, such as Enca, Estel, Legolas, Gil, Fea or maybe the B-W himself could help out.

~Glirdy~

Boromir88 · 09-08-2005, 07:52 PM

jordainian, if you haven't seen ROTK EE you would not be familiar with the Mouth of Sauron. Jackson adds him in the EE.

He is Sauron's herald and ambassador. Lieutenant of Barad-dur. His main purpose in LOTR, as seen was to deliver to Aragorn and co. at the black gate the mithril shirt they found and claiming that their attempt had failed and the poor hobbit Frodo was tortured and killed. He then delivered terms Sauron offered for the everyone to submit to Sauron and pay tribute to him, of course Aragorn denied.

The Mouth was said to be a black Numenorean taken in by Sauron, grew in his favor, and taught him a bit of sorcery. That's really all that's said on the guy. Hope that helps. If you really want to see a good depiction of the Mouth of Sauron I suggest reading the books, instead of watching the movies, because Jackson's movie version I don't think shows too well the Mouth of Sauron's true purpose, to be a messengers. Which was to offer the terms that Sauron gave. He would spare their lives if they submitted fully to Sauron.

Glirdan · 09-08-2005, 07:54 PM

There we go, someone who explained it better. So, did that clear things up?

Alcarillo · 09-08-2005, 07:56 PM

The Mouth of Sauron was also a Black Numenorean, a Numenorean who fell under the sway of Sauron. I doubt he was born in Numenor, probably he was just the descendant of the Numenoreans (perhaps of a garrison of soldiers and women in Umbar). Anyways, in the last years of Numenor the king captured Sauron and took him to Numenor. Sauron rose through the ranks, so to speak, and became the king's advisor. He corrupted the mind of the king, started a satanic religion, and was generally the real ruler of Numenor. The Black Numenoreans were those who followed him.

And I would read the books, if I were you, or our conversations might sound like nothing but elvish babble!

EDIT: Whoops, cross-posted with the last two.

The Perky Ent · 09-08-2005, 09:40 PM

Yes, that part of the book is a pretty fun one. One of those 'Battle of the Witty Insults'. When I think of it, it reminds me of the chapter where Gandalf battles wits with Saruman. Good stuff. It's been described pretty well. Well...since this is in the movie forum, i'll give a little movie description. Well...I'll let the pictures do the talking.

Book Version

Movie Version

Basically, movie version has dental problems, and back spasms.

Ainaserkewen · 09-08-2005, 09:47 PM

Oh I agree Perky. That part of the book was sadistically fun to read. I always love it when the bad guys monologue and think they're so great only to be shot down by the good guys with one clean swipe (which works literally in the movie).

I do prefer the imagination that went into the movie version of our favourite black foe...

Boromir88 · 09-09-2005, 05:07 AM

One thing when reading the book, I actually was more creeped out by the guys horse more than the Mouth of Sauron. His horse is maybe the most frightening description in the books.

Ainaserkewen, I agree, I think the giant peacock hat need not be there, but the rotting teeth, and just showing the Mouth was good imagination on Jackson and the design teams part.

The Only Real Estel · 09-09-2005, 08:43 AM

I also appreciated the imagination that the design team put into creating the Mouth. He didn't seem that impressive when I first saw him (in fact I almost laughed at times because it seemed like he was too over-the-top), but once I watched some of the appendixes and listened to what the team was thinking and how they added things here and there and what their reasoning was behind some of his design I was pretty impressed.

Now I can at least watch the scene without stifling laughter, although I still don't appreciate how he meets his end

(but that's a subject for a different thread).

Essex · 09-09-2005, 08:57 AM

he deserved all he got. and, even in the book version, if someone had killed him I would say this would not be against 'law' ('where such laws hold' of course as Gandalf states).

The main reasoning behind this is that the Parley was set up as part of the trap anyway.

Quote:

He gave a great cry, and turned, leaped upon his steed, and with his company galloped madly back to Cirith Gorgor. But as they went his soldiers blew their horns in signal long arranged; and even before they came to the gate Sauron sprang his trap.

You use a parley as part of a trap and you are under NO laws of protection.

The Only Real Estel · 09-09-2005, 09:13 AM

But the reason why the good guys are the good guys is that they are a rung above the bad guys on the "Edicate Ladder." In the books they had no real way of knowing for sure that it was a trap so they couldn't have used your reasoning there. In the movie, we presume that the future King of Gondor will have enough self control to endure a few taunts and not react like the stereotypical bad guy would.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-09-2005, 11:37 AM

wat is ur problem with his death it was sooo cool LOLOL

But seriously, we spoke about his death before and it went on for quite a while. We probably shouldn't start again here.

To be closed, I imagine.

The Only Real Estel · 09-09-2005, 11:41 AM

Exactly. There must be another good two, three threads with a lot of posts on them, though I haven't the time to find them & link to them right now.

Or maybe I'm just lazy.

Essex · 09-09-2005, 12:18 PM

of course there are more threads - i'm arguing on two of them at the moment about the same thing.

Quote:

But the reason why the good guys are the good guys is that they are a rung above the bad guys on the "Edicate Ladder." In the books they had no real way of knowing for sure that it was a trap so they couldn't have used your reasoning there. In the movie, we presume that the future King of Gondor will have enough self control to endure a few taunts and not react like the stereotypical bad guy would.

to answer your first point. "goodies and baddies" is not black and white in Arda. If there's one thing I've learnt from the books, there is no overall 'good' (or bad for that matter). Take the elves and the kinslaying for example.

your second point. in the movie I put it to you that Aragorn did not kill the MoS because of his taunts, but because the people of the West were losing Hope. the MoS was defeating them with his words. He had to be stopped. It's as simple as that. In the book Aragorn helped to do this with a look, but that just wouldn't work in this film, so he lopped his head off.

Bandobras Took · 09-10-2005, 05:08 AM

Also you could try scape goat (but he is not on very often) he is very very good.

The Perky Ent · 09-18-2005, 11:02 AM

Here's something I just noticed: In the movie, the Mouth of Sauron says

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouth of Sauron

And who is this? Isildur's heir? It takes more than a king with a broken elvish blade to- *die*

...broken elvish blade? But...didn't Telchar, the DWARF smith make Narsil? Hmm....I guess it's just another one to be added to the infinite pile of errors in the movie!

Happy Hunting!

Lord Melkor · 09-20-2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Perky Ent

Here's something I just noticed: In the movie, the Mouth of Sauron says

...broken elvish blade? But...didn't Telchar, the DWARF smith make Narsil? Hmm....I guess it's just another one to be added to the infinite pile of errors in the movie!

Happy Hunting!

Of course that could be explained by saying that the Mouth of Sauron did not know who made the blade, only that it was used by the elves. As such it is not unreasonable for him to assume that the blade was crafted by the Noldor.

The Perky Ent · 09-20-2005, 06:39 PM

I guess that's him. All mouth and no brain. I'd prefer meeting the Ear of Sauron. He wouldn't mouth off at me, and he'd just listen to my demands. And when he's done listening, I can have the satisfaction of hearing Legolas say :" Look! The messenger only has ears! ". You'd think I'd react with a

, but when you've know him as long as I have, it's more of an

Boromir88 · 09-20-2005, 07:57 PM

Quote:

your second point. in the movie I put it to you that Aragorn did not kill the MoS because of his taunts, but because the people of the West were losing Hope. the MoS was defeating them with his words. He had to be stopped. It's as simple as that. In the book Aragorn helped to do this with a look, but that just wouldn't work in this film, so he lopped his head off.~Essex

That still doesn't mean anything. Even in the unhonorable times of war we live in now, directors show they can understand that you couldn't kill a messenger (Tolkien understood this too and he fought in the first war where really it wasn't honorable any more).

Prior to WW1 wars were seen as a "Gentleman's war." With rules that each side followed because it was considered the honorable way to fight. Directors of Troy, Braveheart, Gladiator, King Arthur...etc all show they understood this concept. You can't kill a messenger.

If the MoS was using words to defeat people then Aragorn needs to use words back to send him away cowering, like Tolkien shows. Clearly stated within the books (as well as Kuru's sig), he could not be assailed. No matter how vile, low, or cruel the MoS may have stooped with his words, you can't kill a messenger. He's not there to fight, he's there to deliver terms and may not be assailed.

Let me take some common day examples. I don't know what it's like in England but in the US if someone breaks in your house you can't kill them and say it's self defense. You may only use a force equal to that of the attacker. So if a guy breaks in your house, there's no fear for your life, he has no weapon, no fear that he's there to kill you just rob you, you can't kill him and claim self-defense. Now if he had a gun and he was pointing it at you, then of course you are afraid he's going to kill you and therefor can take the proper action in defending yourself. So, it's this concept that you can only use the amount of force that is equal to that of the attacker. Even without this, still the bottomline is you can't kill a messenger.

In this case, the MoS was using word, Aragorn can use words back. I prefer the banter that went on to the three seconds of talking and "off with your head."

The Perky Ent · 09-20-2005, 08:22 PM

Don't kill the messenger! But, almost most of this is true: [quote=boromir88]Prior to WW1 wars were seen as a "gentleman's war"]. If you think about it, one of the reasons America gained it's independance from Britian was because it used Guriella warfare when the British expected them to follow the rules they fought by. But yes...You are, of course, right!

Essex · 09-22-2005, 11:51 AM

Boromir your point

Quote:

he's there to deliver terms

He was not there to deliver terms in the movie. yes, he was in the book, as I've explained before on various threads. But in the film he was just there to taunt them and to remove any last vestages of Hope.

He was NOT a messenger, nor there to Parley.

Therefore, off with his head!

05-19-2006, 01:56 PM

When the Mouth addresses Aragon, Gandalf, and the others, in the film, he begins by asking "Is there any in this route with authority to treat with me?". To treat as defined below is a term for negotiating.
Treat- to negotiate terms- intransitive verb to negotiate, especially in order to reach a settlement
Thus the was there to negotate and not just to fling insults. So there was really no reason to kill him.

Ellewen · 05-20-2006, 09:58 AM

This has probably already been said, but if you watch the EE of RotK. You'll find the Mouth of Sauron there.

ninja91 · 05-22-2006, 10:59 AM

As far as I know, the Mouth of Sauron was the messenger of Sauron himself AND the lieutenent of the Dark Tower (Barad Dur). He is not slayed in the books, although he is in the movie by Aragorn. In the books, he refers to himself as an ambassador who may not be attacked.
This whole scene happens at the Black Gate when Aragorn leads the host of the west into Mordor to bide time for Frodo and Sam to destroy the Ring.
Hope this helps!

09-08-2005, 07:16 PM	#1
jordainian Guest Posts: n/a	The mouth of Sauron I have not read the books but i have seen the movies. People keep talking about a mouth of sauron and i have no clue wat they r talkin about.

09-08-2005, 07:28 PM	#2
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	Here, I'll try and explain it as best as I can without my books. After the Battle of the Last Alliance when Isildur took up the Ring and claimed it for his own, Sauron wasn't utterly destroyed. His spirit fled his body and hid in the East for a time. Then he lived in Dul-Guldur(? I forget how to spell it propoerly, if that isn't the way) and got the Nazgul, that is the Black Riders, to make Mordor ready for his return because he knew of the coming of the Istari (the Wizards) and that the White Council was going to attempt to overthrow him. Thus, he feigned retreat and once again took up abode in Mordor. I don't know how long afterwards, he took someone to "be his mouth" and tell everyone what he wanted done. How, I forget. If I missed someting in my explaination, maybe one of the more knowledgeable(?) members, such as Enca, Estel, Legolas, Gil, Fea or maybe the B-W himself could help out. ~Glirdy~ __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

09-08-2005, 07:52 PM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	jordainian, if you haven't seen ROTK EE you would not be familiar with the Mouth of Sauron. Jackson adds him in the EE. He is Sauron's herald and ambassador. Lieutenant of Barad-dur. His main purpose in LOTR, as seen was to deliver to Aragorn and co. at the black gate the mithril shirt they found and claiming that their attempt had failed and the poor hobbit Frodo was tortured and killed. He then delivered terms Sauron offered for the everyone to submit to Sauron and pay tribute to him, of course Aragorn denied. The Mouth was said to be a black Numenorean taken in by Sauron, grew in his favor, and taught him a bit of sorcery. That's really all that's said on the guy. Hope that helps. If you really want to see a good depiction of the Mouth of Sauron I suggest reading the books, instead of watching the movies, because Jackson's movie version I don't think shows too well the Mouth of Sauron's true purpose, to be a messengers. Which was to offer the terms that Sauron gave. He would spare their lives if they submitted fully to Sauron. __________________ Fenris Penguin

09-08-2005, 07:54 PM	#4
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	Cheers to Boro!! There we go, someone who explained it better. So, did that clear things up? __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

09-08-2005, 09:40 PM	#6
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Fear. The city is rank with it Yes, that part of the book is a pretty fun one. One of those 'Battle of the Witty Insults'. When I think of it, it reminds me of the chapter where Gandalf battles wits with Saruman. Good stuff. It's been described pretty well. Well...since this is in the movie forum, i'll give a little movie description. Well...I'll let the pictures do the talking. Book Version Movie Version Basically, movie version has dental problems, and back spasms. __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

09-08-2005, 07:56 PM	#5
Alcarillo Shadow of the Past Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minas Mor-go Posts: 1,007	The Mouth of Sauron was also a Black Numenorean, a Numenorean who fell under the sway of Sauron. I doubt he was born in Numenor, probably he was just the descendant of the Numenoreans (perhaps of a garrison of soldiers and women in Umbar). Anyways, in the last years of Numenor the king captured Sauron and took him to Numenor. Sauron rose through the ranks, so to speak, and became the king's advisor. He corrupted the mind of the king, started a satanic religion, and was generally the real ruler of Numenor. The Black Numenoreans were those who followed him. And I would read the books, if I were you, or our conversations might sound like nothing but elvish babble! EDIT: Whoops, cross-posted with the last two.

09-08-2005, 09:47 PM	#7
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	Oh I agree Perky. That part of the book was sadistically fun to read. I always love it when the bad guys monologue and think they're so great only to be shot down by the good guys with one clean swipe (which works literally in the movie). I do prefer the imagination that went into the movie version of our favourite black foe... __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

09-09-2005, 05:07 AM	#8
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	One thing when reading the book, I actually was more creeped out by the guys horse more than the Mouth of Sauron. His horse is maybe the most frightening description in the books. Ainaserkewen, I agree, I think the giant peacock hat need not be there, but the rotting teeth, and just showing the Mouth was good imagination on Jackson and the design teams part. __________________ Fenris Penguin

09-09-2005, 08:43 AM	#9
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	I also appreciated the imagination that the design team put into creating the Mouth. He didn't seem that impressive when I first saw him (in fact I almost laughed at times because it seemed like he was too over-the-top), but once I watched some of the appendixes and listened to what the team was thinking and how they added things here and there and what their reasoning was behind some of his design I was pretty impressed. Now I can at least watch the scene without stifling laughter, although I still don't appreciate how he meets his end (but that's a subject for a different thread).

09-09-2005, 09:13 AM	#11
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	But the reason why the good guys are the good guys is that they are a rung above the bad guys on the "Edicate Ladder." In the books they had no real way of knowing for sure that it was a trap so they couldn't have used your reasoning there. In the movie, we presume that the future King of Gondor will have enough self control to endure a few taunts and not react like the stereotypical bad guy would.

09-09-2005, 11:37 AM	#12
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	wat is ur problem with his death it was sooo cool LOLOL But seriously, we spoke about his death before and it went on for quite a while. We probably shouldn't start again here. To be closed, I imagine. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-09-2005, 11:41 AM	#13
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	Exactly. There must be another good two, three threads with a lot of posts on them, though I haven't the time to find them & link to them right now. Or maybe I'm just lazy.

09-10-2005, 05:08 AM	#15
Bandobras Took Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Green Dragon Inn Posts: 22	Also you could try scape goat (but he is not on very often) he is very very good.

09-20-2005, 06:39 PM	#18
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Silly Legolas! Logic is for Men I guess that's him. All mouth and no brain. I'd prefer meeting the Ear of Sauron. He wouldn't mouth off at me, and he'd just listen to my demands. And when he's done listening, I can have the satisfaction of hearing Legolas say :" Look! The messenger only has ears! ". You'd think I'd react with a , but when you've know him as long as I have, it's more of an __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

09-20-2005, 08:22 PM	#20
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Don't kill the messenger! But, almost most of this is true: [quote=boromir88]Prior to WW1 wars were seen as a "gentleman's war"]. If you think about it, one of the reasons America gained it's independance from Britian was because it used Guriella warfare when the British expected them to follow the rules they fought by. But yes...You are, of course, right! __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

05-19-2006, 01:56 PM	#22
Witch King of Agmar Guest Posts: n/a	The Mouth was a diplomat in both the movie and the book When the Mouth addresses Aragon, Gandalf, and the others, in the film, he begins by asking "Is there any in this route with authority to treat with me?". To treat as defined below is a term for negotiating. Treat- to negotiate terms- intransitive verb to negotiate, especially in order to reach a settlement Thus the was there to negotate and not just to fling insults. So there was really no reason to kill him.

05-20-2006, 09:58 AM	#23
Ellewen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Somewhere in the woods looking for a place to recharge my laptop's battery. Posts: 35	This has probably already been said, but if you watch the EE of RotK. You'll find the Mouth of Sauron there. __________________ "Wait one moment and I'll get my bow and quiver... No wait I'll quiver first and get it over with." quivers - Robin Hood

05-22-2006, 10:59 AM	#24
ninja91 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chozo Ruins. Posts: 421	As far as I know, the Mouth of Sauron was the messenger of Sauron himself AND the lieutenent of the Dark Tower (Barad Dur). He is not slayed in the books, although he is in the movie by Aragorn. In the books, he refers to himself as an ambassador who may not be attacked. This whole scene happens at the Black Gate when Aragorn leads the host of the west into Mordor to bide time for Frodo and Sam to destroy the Ring. Hope this helps!