Unorthodox Heroes? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Anguirel · 09-20-2005, 06:30 AM

That's not my point. What I'm saying is that Tolkien likes Sam, admires him without reservation. This makes him an "orthodox" hero; his humble background adds to, rather than detracts from, this; everyone is meant to love the chap who strikes a blow for the little man. An unorthodox hero is one Tolkien to some measure disapproves of; that can range from Gollum to Feanor to Gorbag to Maeglin. Some characters, like Galadriel, are of course so heavily revised that it's difficult to tell what the author's final orthodox view of them is. This allows the aesthetic choice to decide instead; (eg we can decide that we prefer the version where Galadriel defies the Valar).

mormegil · 09-20-2005, 06:56 AM

ANG, under that definition I would have to agree with you that Sam is not unorthodox. I initially said it because he is not like any other hero that I have read about. The fact that he is a servant and remains the servant is fairly unique, yet I understand further your definition and accordingly I would say that Samwise is orthodox. I guess what you are saying is that there is no ambiguity as to weather or not we are meant to like him and therefore he is orthodox.

Anguirel · 09-20-2005, 06:59 AM

Quite. The only time Sam could be described as an unorthodox hero is in the stairs of Cirith Ungol incident and his treatment of Gollum generally. And possibly the Scouring, if you share Frodo's horror at the killings.

Congratulations about your baby, Mormegil, by the way!

09-20-2005, 06:30 AM	#1
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	That's not my point. What I'm saying is that Tolkien likes Sam, admires him without reservation. This makes him an "orthodox" hero; his humble background adds to, rather than detracts from, this; everyone is meant to love the chap who strikes a blow for the little man. An unorthodox hero is one Tolkien to some measure disapproves of; that can range from Gollum to Feanor to Gorbag to Maeglin. Some characters, like Galadriel, are of course so heavily revised that it's difficult to tell what the author's final orthodox view of them is. This allows the aesthetic choice to decide instead; (eg we can decide that we prefer the version where Galadriel defies the Valar). __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

09-20-2005, 06:56 AM	#2
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	ANG, under that definition I would have to agree with you that Sam is not unorthodox. I initially said it because he is not like any other hero that I have read about. The fact that he is a servant and remains the servant is fairly unique, yet I understand further your definition and accordingly I would say that Samwise is orthodox. I guess what you are saying is that there is no ambiguity as to weather or not we are meant to like him and therefore he is orthodox. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

09-20-2005, 06:59 AM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Quite. The only time Sam could be described as an unorthodox hero is in the stairs of Cirith Ungol incident and his treatment of Gollum generally. And possibly the Scouring, if you share Frodo's horror at the killings. Congratulations about your baby, Mormegil, by the way! __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso